Avinox M2 SL
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Rex
New Member
Mondraker or Orbea?
1300W is actually not that hard to achieve...let's elaborate...
1300W on a 36V system is scratching the continuous discharge limits of most current(now already older) 5,5Ah 21700 cells. That limit hovers around 10 to 11 Amps, that is what a cell can provide continuously and safely.
36V system 800Wh packs with 21700 cells are all 10S4P configurations, they can't be built in a different way as 10 cells in series provide 36V. The parallel groups provide capacity.
1300W/36V ≈ 36A at full load
36A/4(parallel cell groups) ≈ 9A per single cell.
There probably are some safety standards that limit on what is allowed or isn't. But seeing how other legislation is being dogged...who knows what may come in the future.
If they bring out a new higher capacity same size battery then they will definitely use the latest 6,5Ah cells avaliable from Molicel, maybe even the 6Ah for a race dedicated system/battery pack as the 6Ah cell is bonkers.
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If the sizing should stay the same then they are sticking with a 36V system, because it's related to the way u need to stack the cells. Now building a pack with the new Molicel M65A cells would mean a possibly labeled 940Wh pack in the same size and weight as the current one. The biggest advantage though would be the fact that the new Molicel INR M65A cell has a continuous discharge current limit at 26Amps which means that at 1300W of load the cells would run at only cca 35% of their capability.
Possible new battery packs:
Same dimensions as the current 800Wh
10S x 4P x 3,6V x 6,5Ah ≈ 936Wh(26Ah)
10S x 4P x 3,6V x 6Ah ≈ 864Wh(24Ah)
Same dimensions as the current 600Wh
10S x 3P x 3,6V x 6,5Ah ≈ 702Wh(19,5Ah)
10S x 3P x 3,6V x 6Ah ≈ 648Wh(18Ah)
Regarding the weight, I checked the cell weights again. The current Avinox batteries are supposedly using the LG M58T 5,5Ah cells that weigh 71,2g. The new Molicel M65A weighs 74,5g. That's a difference of 3,3g per cell.
So the 936Wh would weigh cca 130g(40x3,3g) more and the 702Wh would weigh cca 100g(30x3,3g) more, unless they also use a lighter battery housing material to counter the extra cell weight.
A higher voltage system like Specialized at 51V has it's advantages in lower current draw, so lower capacity batteries can be used, although the packaging becomes an issue, because stacking cells to achieve 51V and a high capacity in a compact form factor is a challenge.
1300W on a 36V system is scratching the continuous discharge limits of most current(now already older) 5,5Ah 21700 cells. That limit hovers around 10 to 11 Amps, that is what a cell can provide continuously and safely.
36V system 800Wh packs with 21700 cells are all 10S4P configurations, they can't be built in a different way as 10 cells in series provide 36V. The parallel groups provide capacity.
1300W/36V ≈ 36A at full load
36A/4(parallel cell groups) ≈ 9A per single cell.
There probably are some safety standards that limit on what is allowed or isn't. But seeing how other legislation is being dogged...who knows what may come in the future.
If they bring out a new higher capacity same size battery then they will definitely use the latest 6,5Ah cells avaliable from Molicel, maybe even the 6Ah for a race dedicated system/battery pack as the 6Ah cell is bonkers.
Molicel Launches INR-21700-M65A and INR-21700-P60B, Pioneering Market Leading Power for E-bikes and light electric vehicles - Molicel
Molicel, a global leader in high-performance lithium-ion cells, today announced that its two cutting-edge 21700 battery models – INR-21700-M65A and the
share.google
If the sizing should stay the same then they are sticking with a 36V system, because it's related to the way u need to stack the cells. Now building a pack with the new Molicel M65A cells would mean a possibly labeled 940Wh pack in the same size and weight as the current one. The biggest advantage though would be the fact that the new Molicel INR M65A cell has a continuous discharge current limit at 26Amps which means that at 1300W of load the cells would run at only cca 35% of their capability.
Possible new battery packs:
Same dimensions as the current 800Wh
10S x 4P x 3,6V x 6,5Ah ≈ 936Wh(26Ah)
10S x 4P x 3,6V x 6Ah ≈ 864Wh(24Ah)
Same dimensions as the current 600Wh
10S x 3P x 3,6V x 6,5Ah ≈ 702Wh(19,5Ah)
10S x 3P x 3,6V x 6Ah ≈ 648Wh(18Ah)
Regarding the weight, I checked the cell weights again. The current Avinox batteries are supposedly using the LG M58T 5,5Ah cells that weigh 71,2g. The new Molicel M65A weighs 74,5g. That's a difference of 3,3g per cell.
So the 936Wh would weigh cca 130g(40x3,3g) more and the 702Wh would weigh cca 100g(30x3,3g) more, unless they also use a lighter battery housing material to counter the extra cell weight.
A higher voltage system like Specialized at 51V has it's advantages in lower current draw, so lower capacity batteries can be used, although the packaging becomes an issue, because stacking cells to achieve 51V and a high capacity in a compact form factor is a challenge.
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Is this a potential reason for the Levo battery being so chonky?A higher voltage system like Specialized has at 51V has it's advantages in lower current draw, so lower capacity batteries can be used, although the packaging becomes an issue, because stacking cells to achieve 51V and a high capacity in a compact form factor is a challenge.
The new Giant Reign has a pretty slim battery even though it's a 48v system (I think).
Definitely one if not the main reason, the way they stacked the cells in their pack is horizontally vs them being vertically in the Avinox. The other reason is they went with a 14S3P vs 13S3P system, That menas they needed to stack 14 cells in series, one cell is 7cm long if you want a slim pack you need to stack them vertically, but at some point there is no more space to stack them vertically 14x7cm=98cm For comparison in 36V system you need to stack 10 cells in series vertically 10x7cm=70cm. EDIT: The 70cm is only for showing the concept of building a pack, 70cm is way to long for a downtube. The Avinox 800 pack is quite long at 56cm-that means there are only 7 or 8 cells stacked vertically, but 10 connected in series.
A difference of 30cm is huge when looking at the downtube length of an embt. You can see the Spesh horizontaly placed cells here:
Now the new Reign is a 48V system, I think because of the voltage, cant be sure(need more facts) it's a 13S3P configuration, as the battery pack of 560Wh(think) could indicate that. We will see.
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There is one thing though that could be a limiting factor Dji using the Molicel cells. Molicel is a Taiwanese company, PRC and them are not really best friends 
. But no worries, PRC has their own guns...looks like the blueprints for the new 6,5Ah cells are in circulation....
FEB(Far East Battery)
. But no worries, PRC has their own guns...looks like the blueprints for the new 6,5Ah cells are in circulation....FEB(Far East Battery)
Bogdan_CH
Active member
In all seriousness, 1.3 kw motor with a 0.8 kwh battery. So theoretically you could deplete that battery in less than 40 minutes?
To me, this is a one-legged race; a power struggle where no one truly wins.
To me, this is a one-legged race; a power struggle where no one truly wins.
If you wanted to yes sort of, 1,3kw is the peak power, so not really 40min...more like 60ish...
More power, less weight is a step in the right direction IMO. This was the attraction of the M1. Lighter than the other big brand full power motors. And you can always turn the power down. And I do. 80% of my riding is in Auto or Eco.
But more power more weight, as in the M2, is not worth it. Because if you turn the power down. You are still carrying the extra weight.
Highland Wheels
Well-known member
Less weight is the way these manufacturers should be going. The current power levels are more than enough. I don't think any of my modes are tuned to be remotely near the full power/torque it can do as it doesn't need it IMO for the riding I do. I'd much rather have the extra range.
A full fat enduro type bike with an Avinox system that's easy sub 20kg is the dream. I'd love my Forbidden to weigh 3/4kgs less
I'm after the lightest bikes. Don't mind a couple of extra kilos in a purpose built downhill rig. But my everyday ride needs to be trimmed down.
It's hard to get a proper Enduro light. Downhill focused suspension, frame, wheels and tyres are heavy. I've pre-ordered the Velduro frame. But it's going to be 23kgs when kitted out.
Agreed - absolute lightest so far I've managed to build is the Unno Mith, 22.3KG, in full enduro build. Only way to get this lighter without fitting lesser burly parts is to go 600wh battery.
silverstone
Active member
My Unno Mith Pro currently weighs 22.15 kg with pedals, milk and gravity pro Schwalbe tyres. There are many parts that can easily save weight. I hope that with the new brakes, a weight of less than 22 kg can be achieved.
Rando_12345
E*POWAH Master
What drivetrain is that with @Rob Rides EMTB ? Usually going 11s Sram can save you 400g vs Axs 12s. So about half the weight of the battery downgrade.
I wish I had the time and budget (to waste) putting together a 7speed sram DH drivetrain on a DJI powered bike as an experiment. Can an overpowered motor drive a 10-24 cassette, and would going extreme low weight at the rear wheel actually make the bike feel better?
Yes, saving weight is easy (also expensive) but it depends what your goal is. Usually, you are making some more compromises by going lighter on this type of enduro ebike.
SRAM X0. Using 11s definitely saves weight, but then you lose the coast shift feature on Avinox that I like quite a lot.
I could definitely save weight by moving the coil to Float X, 11s drivetrain. Maybe 700g lighter? but at that point I'm not sure being 700g lighter would be worth it?
Rob, do you know if anyone has wired the new Shimano Wireless Derailleurs to the Avinox Motor and tried the coast-shift ? If the system purely works on the power drawn by the derailleur when shifting. In theory it should still work.
I would love to try the new XTR wireless on the new Avinox bike, but I don't want to spend the money if coast-shift doesn't work.
Not that I know of. As far as I know its only compatible with SRAM AXS.
sethimus
😠 Donald Duck 😠
being able to shift while coasting with the avinox is a huge feature for me, wrong part to save weight…
100%. Love that feature. You can be bouncing over chunk going downhill, hanging on for dear life, and still pull a gear or two or three. Last thing you want to do in that situation, is a pedal stroke that will slightly unbalance you.
sethimus
😠 Donald Duck 😠
the only way to save a bit of unsprung mass would be with sizing down the cassette to a 10-44 xplr
SRAM need to come out with a emtb specific 8 or 9 speed cassette and a short cage AXS derailleur to match.
A modern verions of this:
ebike-mtb.com
A modern verions of this:
SRAM EX1 Review: 8-gear drivetrain for E-MTBs
We've tested the first dedicated E-MTB drivetrain, the SRAM EX1, on various bikes over the past few weeks. Here's what we think.
ebike-mtb.com
sethimus
😠 Donald Duck 😠
didn’t sell because average customers are retarded, they think more gears = better
silverstone
Active member
I don't know what kind of flat terrain you're always riding on, but I need to use the lowest gear on my XO cassette from time to time. And that's with an Avinox motor 
So a simpler, lighter 10-speed gear system certainly makes sense, but the smallest gear still needs at least 46 teeth here on my local trails.
So a simpler, lighter 10-speed gear system certainly makes sense, but the smallest gear still needs at least 46 teeth here on my local trails.
Highland Wheels
Well-known member
My Deviate is just over 16kgs, DH casing tyres and an EXT coil. New tech should see an Eeb down there at some point imo
Rando_12345
E*POWAH Master
I use 10-42 cassette with a 32 chainring and live in the french Alps. I almost never use the 42 cog (or the 10 for that matter).I don't know what kind of flat terrain you're always riding on, but I need to use the lowest gear on my XO cassette from time to time. And that's with an Avinox motor
So a simpler, lighter 10-speed gear system certainly makes sense, but the smallest gear still needs at least 46 teeth here on my local trails.
But I do ride in turbo or emtb+ at all times.
I said many not all. We would need big leaps in technology to get a full power enduro emtb down to 16kg. The lightest full power motor we've seen is the Maxon I think and that is 2kg without the battery. I'm not sure you can go much lighter than 2kg without compromising on durability/longevity of the motor internals. Then you have to add on the battery and auxiliary items. I can't really ever see a full power emtb system weight going any lower than 3-4kg so you are always gonna be 3-4kg heavier than the equivalent analogue enduro bike.
Highland Wheels
Well-known member
I was refering to a sub 20kg full fat bike.
It'll come eventually
It'll come eventually
sethimus
😠 Donald Duck 😠
maxon should get there, most prototypes with enduro parts are 19kg ish with the 400wh, even the goobzcyles titanium/chromoly proto is under 20kg, the dedicated/senduro is at 21 but they say they can easily take off 1.5kg for the retail version