Any one got experience with Bosch when an update bricks the controller

[macinthekitchen]

Bike was working perfectly until yesterday. I tried to update to the latest software, Flow app said it had downloaded to the bike successfully, but I got the message “software install failed' when it tried to do the install. I pressed “retry” a couple of times, then was told to power off and back on. When it powered on the controller leds all flashed red and the kios had an error “Error 113114. Control unit error - memory error.”
Tried to power off a few times, but didn’t help so took it to the LBS today. They tested all the parts, identified the controller was bricked. They’ve put in a claim but expect it to be rejected as I’m out of warranty.
Anyone got any experience of a software update bricking something and it being covered (even out of warranty)?

 

[Bndit]

No, but I`m sure Bosch will cover this if you don`t have speed boxes etc.

 

[irie]

Bike was working perfectly until yesterday. I tried to update to the latest software, Flow app said it had downloaded to the bike successfully, but I got the message “software install failed. I pressed “retry” a couple of times, then was told to power off and back on. When it powered on the controller leds all flashed red and the kios had an error “Error 113114. Control unit error - memory error.”
Tried to power off a few times, but didn’t help so took it to the LBS today. They tested all the parts, identified the controller was bricked. They’ve put in a claim but expect it to be rejected as I’m out of warranty.
Anyone got any experience of a software update bricking something and it being covered (even out I’d warranty)?

I once had that experience.

Had an early days Apple iPhone which I updated exactly as instructed for that model by the Apple website (I was a software engineer and knew exactly what I was doing). The phone was so slow it was completely unusable. Went to the Apple Store and asked what had gone wrong. After 10 minutes bloke returned and said I should make appointment to have it looked at by the "Genius Bar" so did so for a week later.

Went back a week later, bloke looked at the phone, disappeared for a few minutes then reappeared and said "sorry sir, the phone is out of warranty so there's nothing we can do about it". I protested that I had followed the instructions to the letter on the Apple Web site for the model but made no difference.

Unsurprisingly I never bought an Apple product again.

 

[macinthekitchen]

No, but I`m sure Bosch will cover this if you don`t have speed boxes etc.

Nope, no mods. Hope you're right and they cover it.

 

[macinthekitchen]

I once had that experience.

Had an early days Apple iPhone which I updated exactly as instructed for that model by the Apple website (I was a software engineer and knew exactly what I was doing). The phone was so slow it was completely unusable. Went to the Apple Store and asked what had gone wrong. After 10 minutes bloke returned and said I should make appointment to have it looked at by the "Genius Bar" so did so for a week later.

Went back a week later, bloke looked at the phone, disappeared for a few minutes then reappeared and said "sorry sir, the phone is out of warranty so there's nothing we can do about it". I protested that I had followed the instructions to the letter on the Apple Web site for the model but made no difference.

Unsurprisingly I never bought an Apple product again.

I’m hoping Bosch don’t have the same attitude. It’s their fail if an update has the ability to brick a device.

 

[Hattori-Hanzo]

Yes, exact same thing happened to me.
I took the bike to a certified Bosch dealer, (thankfully still in warranty period) at first the kiox wouldn't even connect to their computer to diagnose.
I left it with them and after some faffery they got it to connect but said the kiox was bricked and needed to be replaced.

A week later the new one arrives and is installed only for it not to work either. Another week of faffing and it turns out they needed to update their own software to reconfigure the original kiox and get it all up and running again.

It was a pain, but a dealer should be able to sort it out.

If you have the thumb remote you can bypass the kiox entirely and retry the update through your phone to get it working, but it's a long shot.

 

[DieBoy]

It would be hard to say if the borked update was due to a manufacturing issue ( e.g. fault in the EPROM in the controller) or not (user-error, etc.).

That said, Bosch anecdotally can be occasionally generous when it comes to claims.

In the worst case, a new controller is about 100€, which could be a lot worse.

 

[macinthekitchen]

It would be hard to say if the borked update was due to a manufacturing issue ( e.g. fault in the EPROM in the controller) or not (user-error, etc.).

That said, Bosch anecdotally can be occasionally generous when it comes to claims.

In the worst case, a new controller is about 100€, which could be a lot worse.

Agree, it could definitely be a lot worse, and I'd be less annoyed if it just died on its own. But it feels like a software update shouldn't be able to kill a working product. If there was a hardware issue with something in the controller, the install should have the intelligence to spot that and not install itself. I'm also assuming that their engineering team could check the logs (the LBS saved them) to root cause the issue (also recognise engineering will have bigger fish to fry) Anyway - you're right, they might come good, and if not it's £100, and in a few weeks I'll be back on the trials and I won't care.

 

[Ou812]

I once had that experience.

Had an early days Apple iPhone which I updated exactly as instructed for that model by the Apple website (I was a software engineer and knew exactly what I was doing). The phone was so slow it was completely unusable. Went to the Apple Store and asked what had gone wrong. After 10 minutes bloke returned and said I should make appointment to have it looked at by the "Genius Bar" so did so for a week later.

Went back a week later, bloke looked at the phone, disappeared for a few minutes then reappeared and said "sorry sir, the phone is out of warranty so there's nothing we can do about it". I protested that I had followed the instructions to the letter on the Apple Web site for the model but made no difference.

Unsurprisingly I never bought an Apple product again.

I had the same issue with an early model Tesla S. I did the OTA update and it bricked the whole car had to drive my twin turbo’ed 1000hp corvette for a week while Tesla figured out what went wrong. The vette was only tuned to run on either C16 or E-85, needless say it was expensive week of commuting back and forth to work.

I sold the Tesla shortly after and bought a different daily driver, haven’t ever considered a Tesla product again after that.

 

[macinthekitchen]

That sounds like a lot more expensive than my controller Update - Bosch are refusing to replace it as it's out of warranty. They don't care / acknowledge that it was fine until their update killed it. I understand they can't cover products for ever, but I do think they should offer some wiggle room for having an update that kills a perfectly working product. Oh well..

 

[Tetley]

As far as I'm concerned, things that aren't connected to the internet, that are working perfectly don't need updating. Updates tend to have a habit of creating problems that weren't there before, and you don't need security patches for bikes!

 

[Raili’s People]

I’ve read that Shimano updates on Orbeas have gone wrong (phone screen turns off and cuts off the bluetooth iirc) so it’s safer to do in the LBS. Needless to say I haven’t updated my Bosch/Trek Rail myself.

 

[Old Codger]

I tend to agree with you, certainly re security patches but I have had some useful things from updates such as more modes to tailor to my type of riding. I think a traction control is coming and multiple bikes on one app. These must be of use to someone.

 

[RustyIron]

Anyone got any experience of a software update bricking something and it being covered (even out of warranty)?

I've been updating software on critical automated systems for decades, since back when we used to burn new eeproms and install them on hand-wired boards. Nowadays, I always update my equipment to the latest software. My modern computers are often running beta or developer software. If some people chose to endure the mediocrity of early software releases, that's their business. Just because some end-user can't see the differences that updated software provides, doesn't mean the benefits are not there. In my opinion, if the professional that you're paying to work on your equipment tells you that it's "bricked," maybe he's just not all that good at what he does. Or maybe he's just using "simple words" that he thinks the customer will understand. I can't say. What I hear when someone says that a component is "bricked," is that something doesn't work and they don't know why. If the "professional" can't communicate the specificity of the problem to the customer, maybe he can't communicate the problem to the manufacturer, either. "Experts" like that are more likely to be ignored.

 

[irie]

. What I hear when someone says that a component is "bricked," is that something doesn't work and they don't know why. If the "professional" can't communicate the specificity of the problem to the customer, maybe he can't communicate the problem to the manufacturer, either. "Experts" like that are more likely to be ignored.

In another life, having written code for early microprocessors and later devices I can state with absolute certainty that it is frequently relatively easy to "brick" a device, meaning that the entry point used for updating the device's firmware becomes unusable (blocked) due to the designers inexperience/carelessness etc.

 

[macinthekitchen]

This is what annoys me about my situation. Either the engineers/coders did a poor job of checking the integrity of the hardware before allowing the installer to run, or they did a poor job of equipping the Flow app and/or the software the LBS uses with the tools needed to recover the hardware.

 

[Joecrow]

In my opinion, if the professional that you're paying to work on your equipment tells you that it's "bricked," maybe he's just not all that good at what he does. Or maybe he's just using "simple words" that he thinks the customer will understand. I can't say. What I hear when someone says that a component is "bricked," is that something doesn't work and they don't know why. If the "professional" can't communicate the specificity of the problem to the customer, maybe he can't communicate the problem to the manufacturer, either. "Experts" like that are more likely to be ignored.

Fully agree with you on that and sadly bicycle mechanics are not generally computer wizz kids or indeed, in my opinion, very well trained on the tools they are expected to use to work on the software issues of the modern e-bike. I'm still looking to get my 2023 Bosch Smart System bike software reconfigured to take a Power More range extender, most places I've tried clearly haven't the faintest idea of how to go about it and the one place that had a go did not follow the procedure through and claimed there was something wrong with the battery because it errored saying "Not Power More Ready"

 

[RustyIron]

I'm still looking to get my 2023 Bosch Smart System bike software reconfigured to take a Power More range extender, most places I've tried clearly haven't the faintest idea of how to go about it and the one place that had a go did not follow the procedure through and claimed there was something wrong with the battery because it errored saying "Not Power More Ready"

It would be great if the factory trolls would allow us to have the software that they give the shops.

 

[Raili’s People]

I've been updating software on critical automated systems for decades, since back when we used to burn new eeproms and install them on hand-wired boards. Nowadays, I always update my equipment to the latest software. My modern computers are often running beta or developer software. If some people chose to endure the mediocrity of early software releases, that's their business. Just because some end-user can't see the differences that updated software provides, doesn't mean the benefits are not there. In my opinion, if the professional that you're paying to work on your equipment tells you that it's "bricked," maybe he's just not all that good at what he does. Or maybe he's just using "simple words" that he thinks the customer will understand. I can't say. What I hear when someone says that a component is "bricked," is that something doesn't work and they don't know why. If the "professional" can't communicate the specificity of the problem to the customer, maybe he can't communicate the problem to the manufacturer, either. "Experts" like that are more likely to be ignored.

No bluetooth back then, pretty easy the files to go corrupt if the connection cuts out. I agree on that the code nowadays is made cheap and hasty. Soon with AI even.

 

[macinthekitchen]

Update on this. Bosch declined to help. I'm moaned a bit more. Then two weeks later, got a text from my LBS to say the replacement had arrived! So they sorted it (but didn't tell me)