Altering steering angle (Rise)

[Bob Orbea Rise]

Rise for me is very happy downhill. Steeper the better. But uphill it just wants to turn off and go back down at the slightest nudge off line.

Round here it’s a lot of cross country to get to the downhill bits so most of the time the steering is too slack ( complete opposite of the trend at the moment I know) and wants to veer off.

I presume to get it more to my liking I’d want to steepen (not slacken) the head angle. I’ve tried playing with sag on the suspension but anything not rock hard means the pedals strike more and no useful steering tweak is had really.

So I’m thinking of adjustable head set cups and or a longer shock to straighten it all up.

Anyone know if such things? And if the Orbea head tube lends itself to wiggle room ?

 

[Bob Orbea Rise]

Ps I’d really like a shape shifter like on the canyon Strive is it? That looks dead smart to me

 

[Mikerb]

I assume what you are experiencing on uphill runs is the front end getting light. If so a change of riding technique could resolve that. In essence it means applying more of your weight on the front of the bike........but not so much that the rear end loses traction! I have a long slack enduro bike, and OK climbing is not its forte, but I can squeeze better performance from it by riding off the saddle and keeping low ( bent legs) so that I can move my hips forward or back slightly as required on different sections of the climb. I also reduced the ( effective) reach on that bike by using higher rise bars and a ctually found that a benefit both on climbs and downhill on gravity runs. Worth a try?

 

[Bob Orbea Rise]

It’s XL with 50 mm rise bars

I
Like a wheely so am familiar with the front light feeling. This is a an easy rider type steering angle that’s worse uphill

On motor bikes a sports bike needs an upright steering angle for quick side to side steering and a light feeling in the hands over numerous laps. A touring bike less so for a more relaxed ride so they flatten the steering angle

But point that sports bike downhill and it tips forward easier and is less stable giving more flappy bars and tank slappers etc

It’s less of a thing in motor bikes due to weight I guess but the rise is SO stable down hill it suffers more perhaps going up. It’s not a tipping back sensation it’s bar flop to the side sensation. It’s that annoying thing when your working on the bike at stand still and the bars always flop to the side and bang you in the head all bikes do that but on a slack flatter steering angle it’s worse

It’s a compromise for sure you can’t have both, unless you have a shape shifter or stop to fiddle with a flip chip on each downhill …. I suppose.

See what I mean? For me on my most common rides it’s too slack given the number of downhill sections that the bike suits most. Maybe it’s more xc terrain and the bike is more enduro orientated ? Or im too old fashioned

 

[Mikerb]

As I said, to keep control of the bars you need weight over the front wheel and you can do that by adopting a different riding stance. A lot also depends on the weight balance of the bike fore and aft and front centre to rear centre ratio. There is no guarantee that merely making the head angle steeper will make a big difference..........you just need to be willing to experiment how best to ride it on the climb sections. I do not think comparing geo or riding an EMTB to a motorbike is particularly useful. The total mass on a motorbike is dominated by the motorbike. On an EMTB the total mass is dominated by the rider so where the weight of the rider is applied is critical.

 

[Bob Orbea Rise]

Of course I was merely trying to explain the issue with that example as tge suggestion was it was wheelying. It’s not.
Moving forward didn’t change the steering angle so the sensation remains. …. Until the bike is on flatter or even better a downhill track

The trail figures are set by the head angle as I understand things, not the weight distribution. Wheelies yes I get it. Going lite etc understand what you’re saying. Trail figures …. Mmmno not convinced being honest

 

[Mikerb]

The only difference going uphill or downhill given the same geo is your weight balance together with the impact of both that and the inclination of the bike has on your shock and fork. The Geo would have to be pretty extreme ( e.g. a downhill bike) to prevent you climbing with some adjustments..........and you bike Geo is far from extreme being more a trail bike than anything else.

 

[Bob Orbea Rise]

Ok put it this way, it’s too slack uphill it’s slack on the flat and too stable down hill

There’s room for it to be less flat or slack and still handle well down hill in my opinion.

The question is does anyone have info on variable head angle head sets or similar ways to affect the handling?

I am aware most want more slack I want to go the other way so raising the rear might also work

 

[KnollyBro]

Ok put it this way, it’s too slack uphill it’s slack on the flat and too stable down hill

There’s room for it to be less flat or slack and still handle well down hill in my opinion.

The question is does anyone have info on variable head angle head sets or similar ways to affect the handling?

I am aware most want more slack I want to go the other way so raising the rear might also work

Bob... Are you extending your seat post to get proper extension on each pedal stroke or do you ride up trails with the saddle set low down? Can you list any trails on Trailforks.com to show what kind of elevation gains you are are riding up (I have had no problems riding up a constant grade of 25%, with lose rocks, while being able to keep my front wheel on the ground)? Do you happen to have a very triangular shaped body with most of your weight in your waist and hips?
If you are dead set on trying an angled headset, how about a AngleSet - Cane Creek Cycling Components
I am not sure how much 1.5 degrees will do but if you have the money and you have exhausted all other options, why not give it a try? If you REALLY want to raise the rear, how about a shorter travel fork?

 

[Bob Orbea Rise]

I was thinking along the lines of one of these

Angle Headsets

You may have heard the terms slack or steep used in reference to head angle These terms simply refer to head angles that fall toward the extreme ends

www.workscomponents.co.uk

But the reason for posting on the rise pages is I do t know if they will fit. The bike has an integrated headset.

I will email them but does anyone here know?

 

[KnollyBro]

So I’m thinking of adjustable head set cups and or a longer shock to straighten it all up.

Have you consulted your LBS or Orbea dealer about your issue? Its not like you can put in a longer shock and given the integrated headset/cable system, there is not much that can be done there. As @Mikerb has suggested, it might come down to your riding position as I have never heard of anyone else having any such issue. Then again, if you are climbing up lose trails over 25% grade which are littered with baby head sized rocks (we have a few around here), we tend to walk up those ones!

 

[Blinkie]

Bob... Are you extending your seat post to get proper extension on each pedal stroke or do you ride up trails with the saddle set low down? Can you list any trails on Trailforks.com to show what kind of elevation gains you are are riding up (I have had no problems riding up a constant grade of 25%, with lose rocks, while being able to keep my front wheel on the ground)? Do you happen to have a very triangular shaped body with most of your weight in your waist and hips?
If you are dead set on trying an angled headset, how about a AngleSet - Cane Creek Cycling Components
I am not sure how much 1.5 degrees will do but if you have the money and you have exhausted all other options, why not give it a try? If you REALLY want to raise the rear, how about a shorter travel fork?

The rise has an IS headset, so the angleset won't work


My frame uses an (IS) integrated headset - Do you have a headset that will fit?

With the IS or Integrated headset the bearing drops directly into the frames headtube and a headcup is not used - we do not currently have a headset that will work with this type of headtube.



Acros used to do these https://www.bike24.com/p2660640.html but they were frame specific I know of someone who ground down the tabs to fit into headset, it seemed to work. Acros seemed to have stop making them now

 

[rzr]

you can increase pressure in rear shock, if you want rear to be higher (and to steepen the bike a bit), clearly you want to make XC bike (and Rise is not an enduro or slack bike anyway....) and you don't care about any descent capabilities

but yes, it would be interesting to see your climbing trails, on strava or trailforks

 

[Bob Orbea Rise]

you can increase pressure in rear shock, if you want rear to be higher (and to steepen the bike a bit), clearly you want to make XC bike (and Rise is not an enduro or slack bike anyway....) and you don't care about any descent capabilities

but yes, it would be interesting to see your climbing trails, on strava or trailforks

The rise is exceptionally decent capable. So much so, given the riding the bike gets, and not what it was designed for it just be said , that it leaves plenty of room to improve the other disciplines without upsetting MY downhill riding too much in the process.



See…. There needs to be an understanding that what works for “one” as in the royal one. So to speak, does not mean that it works for everyone.

I’m basically asking for set up advice on my bike. Not your bike…on your testing and your set up and your riding style and your whatever.

For me, on my ride there’s an issue I need to fix. The fact nobody else finds the same problem is no surprise as I like neutral steering. Alway have


So moving on…. There’s room to go steeper. Can the bike take the adjustment

 

[rzr]

I just gave you simple idea above...

 

[Mteam]

a shorter fork, or a 27.5 inch front wheel.

They'll both make the head angle steeper, but at significant expense of other aspects of bike handling.

I wouldn't recommend either of the above, I expect they will ruin the bike in almost every other way.

 

[Bob Orbea Rise]

Could try a reverse mullet? But the 27.5 in the front

 

[Bob Orbea Rise]

I just gave you simple idea above...

Yea Thankyou rzr although I think I mentioned earlier that I’d played with Suspension ride hight earlier in the thread

 

[Ameiza]

Slack-R Kits

9point8 provides world-class dropper seatposts, built for users searching for performance and reliability in their bike components.

9point8.ca

Mounting this in reverse should steepen the HTA.
I would not recommend it, though.

 

[irie]

What level of assistance are you using? Also, how tall are you and what is your weight?

 

[Bob Orbea Rise]

What level of assistance are you using? Also, how tall are you and what is your weight?

and was it dark or raining

 

[Bob Orbea Rise]

Before anyone asks I had pasta for tee but not until I got home

 

[Bob Orbea Rise]

And no we didn’t stop off at the pub half way round

 

[Bob Orbea Rise]

Slack-R Kits

9point8 provides world-class dropper seatposts, built for users searching for performance and reliability in their bike components.

9point8.ca

Mounting this in reverse should steepen the HTA.
I would not recommend it, though.

Indeed….. but here’s the key question

Will it fit?

There’s two 10 mm spacers below the stem but this would mean raising the front as the cups sit outside the frame. They’re by negating half (or some amount) of the advantage of fitting them. The video for these does state they can be fitted front or back. Slack or steep

If they fit of course

 

[irie]

and was it dark or raining

You have said that your bike is "XL with 50 mm rise bars". You were asked about the terrain you ride in, and your height and weight, in order to try to build a better picture of why you might be having difficulty with your bike. Then you can be given more targeted help.

 

[rzr]

or maybe you need HT bike ?


also 50mm riser bars maybe this! spoils climbing capabilities of your bike (I can imagine light/unweighted front wheel). what is your saddle position? maybe you can move it 1-2cm forward in rails ?

 

[rzr]

and don't compare Rise or any other MTB to a motorbike, and its steering.
Just ride your bike more, get some experience and it'll be better

 

[Bob Orbea Rise]

and don't compare Rise or any other MTB to a motorbike, and its steering.
Just ride your bike more, get some experience and it'll be better

That was not a comparison it was an example buddy although I if I choose to do so I will weather you allow me or not

 

[Bob Orbea Rise]

I can only assume from the answers you’re giving that you have no idea on the inners of the head tube ?

Nobody here fitted or swapped out a fork ?

 

[irie]

I can only assume from the answers you’re giving that you have no idea on the inners of my head ?

Not as yet, nope.