A different take on ebike power

[knut7]

There is a lot of talk about more powerful emtbs these days. And many emtb’ers can’t see why a bit of increased power is a problem. Some think the speed-restriction is okay, others find it harder to accept. Allow me to bore you with a bit of context before addressing this.

Context​

In my home country of Norway, and in several other European countries, there is this idea that the wilderness should be a silent place where we don't disturb the surroundings more than necessary. Prohibiting motorized vehicle access has been an important way of achieving this. And most people agree with the purpose of this law. I too agree with it.

But...
Read more here

 

[Plyphon]

'Average speed' is a bit of a distraction, imo.

If your trails are flat enough, a fit XC rider on a lightweight carbon hardtail will average much higher than someone on an DJI Avinox equipped 1000W motor as the ebike rider will be up against weight and drag above the speed limit. I will suppose you're not after average speed regulation on regular bikes, also.

If your trails are windy enough, your speed is dictated by your skill - which again, a fitter/better rider on a regular bike will go faster than an eMTB rider downhill.

The only time the eMTB has the clear and absolute average speed advantage is on steep and technical climbs. A steep fireroad you'll hit the limit, sure - but anything with tech you'll be dictated by the terrain.

I think the biggest issues are:

• A (significant, sure) group of people have decided the current rules are too loose or open to interpretation so that the spirit of the product and sport is in jeopardy.
  • This is also compounded by the 'fear of change' and 'ebikes = bad' crowd rattling their sticks.
• No one has actually given a rationale for any new proposed rulings that is based in any objective or measurable metric - it's a subjective viewpoint on where the line should be.
  • Coincidentally, that line is right where one of the big players sits today, and serves to remove an advantage a newcomer to the market has carved.
• However, the market has clearly spoken with DJI Amflow bikes flying off the shelves at a pace that probably has never been seen before in ebiking.
• And let's be real - had that line be drawn where the DJI Avinox motor is today then none of this discussion would be happening and we'd all be getting on with our lives saying "yup, fair enough".

 

[WatermanJim]

Your logic will only lead to more restrictions. If speeds on ebikes can be regulated then why not motorcycles and cars?
I think all cars should be restricted to 100Kph, scan for alcohol and erratic eye movement with face cameras before starting. If it saves one life its worth our inconvience! Also no more building tunnels or bridges because someone might die. Of course thats sarcastic but lets remember that there is a cost of doing business/progress and we all agree that we would rather risk our lives than drive 55mph.

I would much rather they restrict power than speed for class 1. 250w nominal output is more than enough imo. The speed limit of 20mph in US is horrible and if i could not change that i would not want to ride an ebike. 23mph all that is needed and the transition becomes unnoticible. Imo the MTB standard should be 40kph/25mph for everyone and there would be no more issues. The lawyers who dreamed up these rules don't care about keeping people safe from rogue ebikers. They care about making work for themselves and relaxing the rules would put them out of a job. I still have yet to see even one artice where a completely innocent bystander/pedestrian was hurt by an ebiker on a trail.

Personal responibility is one of the cornerstones of freedom. Take that away and your nothing but a slave.
Ride on.

 

[WatermanJim]

There is a lot of talk about more powerful emtbs these days. And many emtb’ers can’t see why a bit of increased power is a problem. Some think the speed-restriction is okay, others find it harder to accept. Allow me to bore you with a bit of context before addressing this.

Context​

In my home country of Norway, and in several other European countries, there is this idea that the wilderness should be a silent place where we don't disturb the surroundings more than necessary. Prohibiting motorized vehicle access has been an important way of achieving this. And most people agree with the purpose of this law. I too agree with it.

But...
Read more here

Crazy to think people worried about ebikers when they really should be worried about driverless cars.
Not hard to imagine that pedestrians and bikers are going to die.
Norway: When the Car Drives by Itself - News

 

[BillyBob]

Your logic will only lead to more restrictions. If speeds on ebikes can be regulated then why not motorcycles and cars?
I think all cars should be restricted to 100Kph, scan for alcohol and erratic eye movement with face cameras before starting. If it saves one life its worth our inconvience! Also no more building tunnels or bridges because someone might die. Of course thats sarcastic but lets remember that there is a cost of doing business/progress and we all agree that we would rather risk our lives than drive 55mph.

I would much rather they restrict power than speed for class 1. 250w nominal output is more than enough imo. The speed limit of 20mph in US is horrible and if i could not change that i would not want to ride an ebike. 23mph all that is needed and the transition becomes unnoticible. Imo the MTB standard should be 40kph/25mph for everyone and there would be no more issues. The lawyers who dreamed up these rules don't care about keeping people safe from rogue ebikers. They care about making work for themselves and relaxing the rules would put them out of a job. I still have yet to see even one artice where a completely innocent bystander/pedestrian was hurt by an ebiker on a trail.

Personal responibility is one of the cornerstones of freedom. Take that away and your nothing but a slave.
Ride on.

Agree with the car analogy, why not restrict a car's speed in built up areas where say a 20mph speed limit outside a school for instance so the cars cannot go faster? Here in UK the Welsh Assembly has restricted speeds from 30mph to 20mph across the country, it has caused uproar from drivers & rightwing press but it has saved over 100 lives from previous years stats. The issue for ebikes is that they are uninsured and unlicensed unlike cars/motorbikes. If they were insured then there is a huge case to be made that how come motorbikes are not restricted? But as Knut points out for trails access in a lot of countries, they are just waiting to pounce to restrict access to all bikes. Plus I don't think any of us want e bikes to have to be licensed etc. Final point, emtbs and e road bikes use power/speed very differently so not sure the restrictions are appropriate for both disciplines . On the road the 15.5mph limit is frustrating because it so easy on a flat road to go above this. Offroad on steep tech climbs its the power, the grunt to get up the hill that people want.

 

[knut7]

Your logic will only lead to more restrictions. If speeds on ebikes can be regulated then why not motorcycles and cars?
I think all cars should be restricted to 100Kph, scan for alcohol and erratic eye movement with face cameras before starting. If it saves one life its worth our inconvience! (...)

Agree with the car analogy, why not restrict a car's speed in built up areas where say a 20mph speed limit outside a school for instance so the cars cannot go faster?

Careful what you "wish" for

Speed limiters now required on all new cars: know the rules and how they work | Auto Express

Speed limiters are required on all new cars from July 7 2024 but what does that mean for motorists and consumers…

www.autoexpress.co.uk

Yeah, it's not being used. Yet...

Even though I'm making the case, I don't really see it as my logic. I just try to explain what I'm facing. I don't think the qutoed questions will affect the legislators when they decide if the ebike belongs in the bike category and consequently on the trails. They designed the pedelec class and if it doesn't work as intended, they'll either cancel or adjust it. I think they'll prefer the latter.

 

[DieBoy]

Your logic will only lead to more restrictions. If speeds on ebikes can be regulated then why not motorcycles and cars?

This is an apples vs oranges comparison logically.

Cars and motorcycles are already restricted in other ways in that you need a licence, insurance, MOT, a licence plate, (higher) age limit, and can only be used on roads or private land. More power = more responsibility (Peter Parker voice).

If you want unlimited power (Palpatine voice) for ebike motors you'd need to except having the same restrictions as cars and motorbikes. Which isn't an attractive proposition for most of us.

 

[ZR1]

I imagine there will be plenty of trail users who would ban mountain bikes, let alone emtbs so I feel for you!

The power limit is getting all the headlines but in terms of average speed I think reducing the assist ratio will have a more meaningful effect.

e.g. a motor needing 100w input to get 750w motor will probably have a faster average speed than one that gives you 400w at 100 input but can reach 1000 at 250w input without penalising heavier bikes or riders

 

[Arminius]

There is a lot of talk about more powerful emtbs these days. And many emtb’ers can’t see why a bit of increased power is a problem. Some think the speed-restriction is okay, others find it harder to accept. Allow me to bore you with a bit of context before addressing this.

Context​

In my home country of Norway, and in several other European countries, there is this idea that the wilderness should be a silent place where we don't disturb the surroundings more than necessary. Prohibiting motorized vehicle access has been an important way of achieving this. And most people agree with the purpose of this law. I too agree with it.

But...
Read more here

Thank you for your engagement and this very interesting and informative article to that I fully agree.

 

[Emailsucks98]

This is an apples vs oranges comparison logically.

If you want unlimited power (Palpatine voice) for ebike motors you'd need to except having the same restrictions as cars and motorbikes. Which isn't an attractive proposition for most of us.

Yes. The other issue that concerns me is the inevitable dumbing down of trails, to accommodate higher speeds, heavier bikes & increase of inexperienced riders. All these car & moto comparisons ignore the fact that roadways are designed to be idiotproof. That is not the direction I want to see the sport go in. The majority of youtube motor comparisons already show things headed in this direction, focusing on service road climbing performance.

 

[Plyphon]

The majority of youtube motor comparisons already show things headed in this direction, focusing on service road climbing performance.

I don't think that's to do with e-biking though - that's more to do with the 'enduro-fication' of the sport for sure. Bikes have been getting longer, slacker, more travel, stickier tyres, etc etc all in aid of hitting the gnar downhill. The whole 'winch up, plummet down' mindset is across all MTB.

I have some friends who don't have ebikes who will ride up the fireroads instead of taking the climb, get off and walk halfway, all just to rip down in 4 minutes of descent - they have super slack, 170mm enduro sleds so I can't blame them, I wouldn't want to ride them up either. I take the climb and do it twice in the time it takes them to walk up for one!

 

[HandsomeDanNZ]

I think the issue is that it's hard to separate road and off-road as many people use their eMTB's for road use.
Also - the speed thing is (as many have said) irrelevant.
I have a bike that tops out at 45kmh assistance.
I am a long way from fit, but my meat-bike was capable of the same speeds as my eBike on the same terrain everywhere but uphill - downhill, on a fire road, I could just as easily do 50-60kmh on the enduro rig as I do on my eBike.

Uphill - I am averaging about 15kmh, as I grind my way up hills and look for more challenging rides, rather than "blasting" up fire roads. A speed limit won't help anyone there.

Frankly, a bike that gives me 400% assistance with 85nm and 600w of peak power is fine for my purposes, but I'd welcome additional assistance in some scenarios - just not that many.

Limit torque, peak power etc, but don't limit speed.

 

[Astro66]

Limit torque, peak power etc, but don't limit speed.

Regulators in Australia look at speed as the problem. Every motorised transport in Australia has speed restrictions. Not power restrictions. So I'm the opposite if we want to maintain our same ride status and continued expansion of EMTBs into National Parks.

Leave the speed limit. (currently 25kph) Leave the motor rated power limit. (currently 500 watts in my state) Leave everything else alone.

That said. I wouldn't be perturbed by a peak power limit. But if it's below 1000 watts. I just wouldn't retrospectively downgrade my EMTB.

 

[flash]

My full fat eMTB’s have been
1. 2019 Merida e160 with an e8000
2. 2021 Merida e160 with an EP8
3, 2023 Levo Gen 3
4. 2025 Amflow Carbon PL Pro.

Every week we ride a 11km XC loop followed by a few gravity laps accessed by a 2.5km fire road with 250M of elevation. Mostly we ride in trail on each bike for general riding and turbo on the fire road. None of my bikes have been derestricted.

On the XC loop the difference between the bikes can be measured in seconds. The Amflow isn’t faster by a significant amount, if at all. That’s because you’re at the limit a lot. And the Levo was easier to pedal over the limiter. The fastest loop I’ve done was on the 2021 Merida. It IS fun trying to clean new lines and short tech sections you might have struggled with before. But the lap times aren’t really any different. I do feel like I’m working a bit less hard but the trail dictates the speed. There’s a long slight slope at the top of the trail where you’re on the limiter for 5 mins or so and I work harder here than my older bikes (maybe not the original e8000). My Amflow has more drag. Not a lot but I feel it. But I’m not barreling into corners faster. My skill is the limiter. And the 25kmh cut off. On the same loop on a SL eMTB (eZesty) I’m 3 minutes slower. But all the full fats are a wash.

The difference on the fire road is massive. 25% faster. And easier. We chat on the way up while the uplift van takes the non eMTB crowd to the top. We use turbo. And at the top we don’t really need to rest between laps. Obviously going down there’s no speed/time differences at all. This is the big difference and I really appreciate it. And I’m well under the posted speed limit.

My conclusion for my riding is that the extra power is awesome. But only for a few spots. Even if I did a turbo only XC lap the times won’t be massively different because we ride at the limiter or over so much on level ground. The difference is in two spots. The boring self shuttle and 1% of the trail where we might go the harder uphill line to challenge our skill level. I could do much better times if our assist limit was raised. Not so much with more power.

This might be different for someone else. I’m definitely somewhere in the middle as a rider. I’m happier in the 30kmh range rather than 50. But the *damage* to the trail and speed increases for most riders will be insignificant except for long climbs and technical uphill lines. Even if we got to 2000W the trail, speed limiter and skill will dictate the speed. A better rider will always be faster than someone like me. But I do NOT want to give up the easier fire road climbs. It’s having an impact on my enjoyment and energy levels on the downs. I really like it.

I also like that if I’m not feeling great I can push the power up a bit and still have a ride with the boys.

Of the 4 bikes the Amflow is my favourite to ride. I like the bike part of it. The controllers, security and fast charging are so so good. But I just like the bike.

I’m finding this whole debate to be an over reaction and a commercial position by Bosch. Yes there are access issues. But the reality is any differences except on fire roads will be small. The real issue is the ease of which some bikes can be derestricted. A gen 4 Bosch motor derestricted to 50kmh is a much bigger problem than my Amflow limited at 25kmh. If all eMTB’s were actually kept as legal class 1 bikes (25/32kmh) there’d be no problems. And it’s relatively easy to test.

Gordon

 

[DieBoy]

IF 25km/h was the holy grail of safety, good sense, well being of trails & wilderness, why crossing the Atlantic, that speed is 32km/h?

The answer to that is cultural.

1) In many European countries (ex. the UK) many people use a bicycle simply as a means of transport, of getting from A to B, without being "cyclists" or "bikers". People wear their eveyday clothes to do so, without e.g. lycra-ing up. Even people who mostly drive will still go on a family bike-ride at the weekend in summer.

The average speed of pushbikes in European cities is 15-17 km/h.
(This is actually a sweetspot as it's about the same energy as walking but 3 times as fast, and under the 20kmh point where wind-resistance becomes the main opposing force).

Most European countries have decent to ok cycling infrastructure.

Thus a max assist speed of 25kmh is still faster than most people you've sharing the cycle-path with, in the majority use-case.

The US doesn't, in general, have the same cycling culture.

2) The EU has a much stronger mentality of consumer protection legislation compared to the US, in part down to the post-war social-democratic history of many of its members. Other example areas are food standards and data protection.

 

[DieBoy]

I commuted for years, and speeds were never 15/17 or, have I seen people riding at those speeds.

Rather than speculate you could read the paper refered to in the original article above, which itself references various studies:

Other investigations from Europe have reported mean speeds between 12 km/h and 14 km/h for conventional cyclists (Dozza and Werneke, 2014, Menghini et al., 2009).

Bare in mind this is the average for all riders, from my 4y.o on the way home from kindergarten to granny going shopping on her Holland-Bike (good on her).

Also in urban areas there tends to be a lot of stop and go. Few people pedal like mad then perform an emergency brake at the last second when approaching a red light, likewise few achieve 0-35kmh in 1 second when setting off.

My personal anecdotal experience is that most people on pushbikes are riding at 20kmh or less, even during typical commuting times. YMMV.

 

[surlyrides]

750w Max power is perfect. I've ridden mtn bikes for decades and Enduro/downhill bikes for the last 20 yrs, I've done 200km rides on acoustic mtbs and I own 6 emtbs currently. I love e-bikes, love them.

I'm fully in favor of the industry getting regulated to 750W peak power And I hope the EU leads the way by implementing this. It's clearly all about access and access is my number one priority because I like riding fun trails.

 

[Straker]

Arguably there’s another group of users with significantly more power and a higher top speed across country… who have similar access rights and hierarchies in the UK Highway Code…. Horses!

1hp might be a suitable limit combined with 20mph speed limit (significantly slower than a horses top speed)….

 

[Arminius]

Arguably there’s another group of users with significantly more power and a higher top speed across country… who have similar access rights and hierarchies in the UK Highway Code…. Horses!

1hp might be a suitable limit combined with 20mph speed limit (significantly slower than a horses top speed)….

750W should be about 1 HP. Factor 1,36?

 

[Emailsucks98]

But just imagine if your ebike weighed 1/2 ton, left postholes behind it and shat all over the trail.....

 

[jimslade]

Thank you for the historical context.
As an American who rides in the national forests of the Sierra Nevada, hoping to get legal access to MTB trails soon, I fully agree with limiting power and speed to keep pedelecs access on every mtb trail.
But then, I’m biased… I traded my Levo for a Levo SL , and don’t see the need for more power.

 

[Straker]

But just imagine if your ebike weighed 1/2 ton, left postholes behind it and shat all over the trail...

But just imagine if your ebike weighed 1/2 ton, left postholes behind it and shat all over the trail.....

My Specialized has shat its motor 4 times……

I just wanted to point out that the 250w thing is just nonsense and that there’s a reasonable argument for more power given that 1/2 tonne dung generators have similar trail access and significantly more power

But just imagine if your ebike weighed 1/2 ton, left postholes behind it and shat all over the trail.....

sound like pushing my turbo levo after each of the five times it’s shat it’s motor

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

Excellent writing with some really great historical info and pics! @knut7

It seems to me that the existing regulations were created by flat-Earthers who assumed a bicycle can only go as fast as its motor propels it. My town has *hills*, so it's not unreasonable for a traditional un-powered bike to exceed 100km/h. And the whole point of MTB is to go up and down hills - so to regulate powered uphill speeds to be arbitrarily lower than the typical downhill speeds that any bike can easily achieve is simply nonsensical.

The streets here have bike lanes that are so narrow, inconsistent, and unprotected that cyclists often need to weave into the car lane. Typical speed limits on these roads are 70 km/h, but we even have bike lanes on the freeways where traffic consistently flows at 130 km/h. In this environment it's hard to claim that ~50 km/h is "too fast" for an e-bike but you could certainly argue that 25 km/h is dangerously slow.

Furthermore, 10kW Surrons are very popular here with children who dig up the trails and race thru the streets at 100 km/h. These bikes provide a simple mail-order workaround to traditional motorcycle sales/license/insurance laws, so parents love 'em. America has no restrictions on what can be purchased online, so as long as kids can easily buy fully automatic anti-personnel machine guns it's foolish to expect Surrons and Amflows to be regulated at the distribution level. Nevermind today's open-source / Maker-culture which is increasingly making commerce-side regulation irrelevant.

How long do you think DJI/Bosch/Bafang are going to have control of their motors before someone releases an open-source firmware alternative? There's no fancy technology there - it's a motor, in a box, with some simple torque response curves and a basic UI. Your average 12-year old could whip up a whole new software architecture in a weekend.

The solution needs to come from local law enforcement imposing harsher fines. We already have most of the laws covering bikes and kids on the street, but for trails we need laws that get to the point - which is basically stopping distances and trail damage. I'd argue that a 35kg e-bike weight limit would be a great start and is easy to test. Beyond that, a 1kW peak-power limit is ample for any climb without enabling speeds on the flats to easily approach our existing downhill speeds. No silly speed-cutoff limits needed.

 

[Bndit]

MBR had good interview with Bosch CEO and I think this is the thing what everybody should think:

“What people do not understand is that it’s a business model,” Fleischer continued. “The legislation is fuelled with the potential of over-regulation, and fuelled from other lobbyists saying things like, ’20 million e-bikes and pedal assist bicycles in the European market having no insurance – that’s a business model, so let’s make sure they all require insurance.’

“That’s a business model from people that we don’t even know, that are doing lobby work behind our back. And that’s the danger.”

 

[Mario Antony]

MBR had good interview with Bosch CEO and I think this is the thing what everybody should think:

“What people do not understand is that it’s a business model,” Fleischer continued. “The legislation is fuelled with the potential of over-regulation, and fuelled from other lobbyists saying things like, ’20 million e-bikes and pedal assist bicycles in the European market having no insurance – that’s a business model, so let’s make sure they all require insurance.’

“That’s a business model from people that we don’t even know, that are doing lobby work behind our back. And that’s the danger.”

I cannot understand why people don't have insurance, without being oblige, when there are cycling federations that offer once you are a member.
For those that spent over 5k on a bike, is there a problem of spending 5 "bakarus" a month?

If by misfortune, you hit someone, animal, object, that leads to some kind of injury/damage, and the persons that were affected prossecute the rider, witgout insurance you'll be accountable for all value (court/indemnities/other expenses) if you are considered responsible.

I'm talking about accidents, that may occur on road/trails/etc.

Yes, you can always think, it's things that happen to others, and f.... that attitude.

Ps: but yes, I understand the issue with trails on some areas/countries, although, it seems there are other real problems to be dealt, other than chassing ebikes on trails.

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

Because the entire purpose of insurance is to fund more yachts for the CEO of the insurance company.

Sure, state-mandated insurance plans like car, home, or health are important for the stability of a large society and are somewhat regulated to limit profits. But voluntary insurance like life, bike, extended warranties, etc. are just schemes to generate unlimited profits for the CEO.

 

[Arminius]

I cannot understand why people don't have insurance, without being oblige, when there are cycling federations that offer once you are a member.
For those that spent over 5k on a bike, is there a problem of spending 5 "bakarus" a month?

If by misfortune, you hit someone, animal, object, that leads to some kind of injury/damage, and the persons that were affected prossecute the rider, witgout insurance you'll be accountable for all value (court/indemnities/other expenses) if you are considered responsible.

I'm talking about accidents, that may occur on road/trails/etc.

Yes, you can always think, it's things that happen to others, and f.... that attitude.

Ps: but yes, I understand the issue with trails on some areas/countries, although, it seems there are other real problems to be dealt, other than chassing ebikes on trails.

For that we have private liability insurance, but it is not mandatory and lots of people don‘t even know about it.

 

[Onetime]

There is a lot of talk about more powerful emtbs these days. And many emtb’ers can’t see why a bit of increased power is a problem. Some think the speed-restriction is okay, others find it harder to accept. Allow me to bore you with a bit of context before addressing this.

Context​

In my home country of Norway, and in several other European countries, there is this idea that the wilderness should be a silent place where we don't disturb the surroundings more than necessary. Prohibiting motorized vehicle access has been an important way of achieving this. And most people agree with the purpose of this law. I too agree with it.

But...
Read more here

TLDR, but just no to Karen’s who want more restrictions and regulations. 15 and 20mph are ridiculously low. An ebike should be able to go at least as fast as a regular Amish bike can be pedaled. And I welcome more power to be able to pedal up steep technical terrain.

 

[GunnarNyb]

Luckily the lawmakers i Norway passed a bylaw in 2015 that allows E-bikes in "Marka", a large wilderness area (actually a set of 5 areas) surrounding Oslo, the capital of Norway.