GIANT Traumas. Are they BATTERY firmware related?

Giant Kiwi, thanks for that. Strangely I was going to replace that connector anyway as mine has a bit of wear on the pins. I had thought that I had ordered one from www.bikeeliteusa.com but it seems like my payment went wrong. I might have a look at that connector again myself tonight as it is easily accessible..
 
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Evolution Stu said:
To make life harder, the Giant shop software reports the firmware differently, in a byte format. Example:
Firmware 1710 on the app = version 0x11 on the shops software.
Firmware 2317 on the app = 0x17 on the shops software.
Firmware 168 on the app = 0x10 on the shops software.
(Thinking aloud, I noted that the first 2 digits of the app version number, minus 6 was the 0x number in firmwares I saw.
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Looks like the shop’s software has a bug causing it to only show the first half of the firmware version. 0x means a number is in hexadecimal (base 16, not base 10). So converting the hex numbers to base 10:

0x11 is 17 (16 + 1)
0x17 is 23 (16 + 7)
0x10 is 16 (16 + 0)

Firmware 1710 on the app = version 17 on the shops software.
Firmware 2317 on the app = 23 on the shops software.
Firmware 168 on the app = 16 on the shops software.
 
Kiwiscoot said:
Hi Stu, can you elaborate. As an experienced emtbiker what puts you off the new ones?
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The simple fact that I read more problems with the gateway equipped versions than I do the older ones.
GIANT hasnt been good to me, so please take my opinion as pretty negatively biased mate. LOL
 
Kiwiscoot said:
when these machines go then they are just a beast. Blows me away!
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Oh i cant disagree...
This was my Saturday afternoon after an hour and half battling through wind and rain at -2 to get up above the cloud base at 3000ft.

IMG_0462.jpeg
 
Kiwiscoot said:
Giant Kiwi, thanks for that. Strangely I was going to replace that connector anyway as mine has a bit of wear on the pins. I had thought that I had ordered one from www.bikeeliteusa.com but it seems like my payment went wrong. I might have a look at that connector again myself tonight as it is easily accessible..
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You can slide this large thick rubber part back to expose the wiring, I have seen two bikes, my own included where the cable has corroded right through on one of the pins due to moisture ingress.
 
Evolution Stu said:
You can slide this large thick rubber part back to expose the wiring, I have seen two bikes, my own included where the cable has corroded right through on one of the pins due to moisture ingress.
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Yes it seems like the RideControl on the handlebars talk to the Gateway unit bolted to the motor. Seems like s/w bugs there to me. Interesting too is that the shop s/w versions and what I see on my phone is nothing like you mentioned. I am taking mine to a different shop as the other shop did not seem like they knew what they were doing and there seemed just a lack of care. We'll see what this other shop say on Friday when I take it in.
Hmm, I will investigate tonight. With the amount of mud I cleaned out of there I will not be surprised that the cause could right well be in there.
Man 3000ft, that's amazing. I was pretty puffed at 400m/1300ft. Once this machine is fixed it will get a thorough test tho up the same road (Mt Hutt skifield) up to the top at 2086m/6900ft. That is what I got it for, exploring the back country.
 
Kiwiscoot said:
Yes it seems like the RideControl on the handlebars talk to the Gateway unit bolted to the motor. Seems like s/w bugs there to me. Interesting too is that the shop s/w versions and what I see on my phone is nothing like you mentioned. I am taking mine to a different shop as the other shop did not seem like they knew what they were doing and there seemed just a lack of care. We'll see what this other shop say on Friday when I take it in.
Hmm, I will investigate tonight. With the amount of mud I cleaned out of there I will not be surprised that the cause could right well be in there.
Man 3000ft, that's amazing. I was pretty puffed at 400m/1300ft. Once this machine is fixed it will get a thorough test tho up the same road (Mt Hutt skifield) up to the top at 2086m/6900ft. That is what I got it for, exploring the back country.
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I wish you all the best with it pal.
 
I certainly hope that you can solve this issue by changing a peripheral component. Unfortunately a read of the "sudden off" issue over many years on this site will reveal that in about half the cases the ultimate fix is a motor replacement.

Moisture ingress and damage to the circuit board appears to be the cause. A quick check you can do is to check the End Float (Axial) and Radial Play of the crankshaft. According to Performance Line Bearings (the eBike Motor Centre in the UK) there should be about 1 mm of End Float (push and pull the crankshaft) and no Radial Play (lift and lower the crankshaft).

From all I have read the Giant/Yamaha ebike motor crankshaft bearings are designed for weight saving and they are a relatively large size bearing containing very small ball bearings within them. This means when water and contaminants penetrate the bearing through the seal the wear rate is relatively quick. This wear quickly allows radial movement in the bearing. This movement of the bearing and race starts to wear the bearing seal and slowly it begins to lift the seal away from the race it’s sealing against ultimately destroying the seal. Once this begins it allows even more water and contaminants into the bearing with successive moisture ingress all speeding up the wear until there is enough room for this moisture contamination to leak past the sealed bearing and into the motor itself.

Unfortunately the design of the Giant/Yamaha motor has the electronic circuit board placed in the lower areas of the motor casing. Moisture ingress, then gravity both then play a part in the electrical failure of the circuit board. Unfortunately at this point there is no way back, Giant do not sell the electronic circuit board separately, nor will they provide any information for repairs. Yamaha do sell circuit boards but unfortunately they will not work without the Giant firmware that Giant will not provide. I believe that currently there is no facility worldwide who is able to repair any Yamaha/Giant circuit board faults so replacement of the complete Giant motor is your only option. I have not checked with Performance Line Bearings / eBike Motor Centre recently, there was some talk about a year ago that they were hopeful of remedying this. There is a Performance Line Bearings / eBike Motor Centre Agent in Taupo.

I really hope that this is not the case for you, but a quick check of the crankshaft with the chain off will reveal if you have bearing/seal issues and possible circuit board issues. My initial motor had lots of radial play before failure and my new (now over two years old) has none. Nowadays I no longer wash my bike straight after use and I mostly dry brush clean or on those few occasions that I wash, I wait until the motor is stone cold.

Best of luck.

axialradialforce.jpg
 
Kiwiscoot said:
Well firmware update did not fix it. It had a good test at Mt Hutt bike park. Went up 365 meters in 5.8 kms in 40 minutes no issue on assist level 1 and 2. It was steep. However at the top I switched it off while I was having a breather and a bite and it would not switch on again. Frustratingly it refused to switch on for the rest of my time at Mt Hutt.
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Thats a shame some great trails up there to explore with more climbing.

I really don't know why you giant riders persevere with such a problematic system and bike. 3,300km ridden from mountain to sea throughout the south island on my Rail including over 30,000 metres climbed. Never once had an issue in 2 1/2 years.
 
JP-NZ said:
Thats a shame some great trails up there to explore with more climbing.

I really don't know why you giant riders persevere with such a problematic system and bike. 3,300km ridden from mountain to sea throughout the south island on my Rail including over 30,000 metres climbed. Never once had an issue in 2 1/2 years.
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JP - a cheap secondhand bike with only 2500kms on that hopefully with a few dollars invested I could get to be reliable. A gamble, either a great bike at a reasonable cost or an expensive boat anchor my guess.:LOL:

Interesting tho the tech at Evo cycles told me they have replaced more Bosch motors than Giant/Yamaha motors. However that doesn't say much as it might be that there is more Bosch systems in our nick of the woods. They are all good systems IMHO but like any other systems each has it's Archilles heel. I was in automated electronic control systems design/developement for years and there is always the tension between cost and reliability. You can test as much as you want in the lab and field tests, the customers will always find the Archille's heel of your design for you. And these things can have a hard life, so like you to buy new is really the way to go when you can afford it.

We'll see what tomorrows outcome will be.
 
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Kiwiscoot said:
JP - a cheap secondhand bike with only 2500kms on that hopefully with a few dollars invested I could get to be reliable. A gamble, either a great bike at a reasonable cost or an expensive boat anchor my guess.:LOL:
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Haha true. Your a brave man buying any 2nd hand bike from CAP. Good luck on a long term fix (y)
 
Well another shop went over the bike, resetted the faults and tested it to be OK. After a gentle 6km ride in the suburbs it did the same again and I could not switch it on. So back it goes tomorrow. They will hook the motor directly to the tester and see, but I will get them to replace the battery discharge connector.
 
Evolution Stu said:
Here is something to ponder over.
Could our power down issues be battery firmware related?

A few hundred miles ago I fitted to my MY20 Trance E+2Pro.

New motor.
New loom. (Latest 21 version)
New discharge connector. (Latest 21 version)
Shim mod.(1x)
New charging port.
New ride control one unit. FLED28-15
New speed sensor.
I have two batteries, a 500 and a 625, the latter of which is only a couple of thousand miles old.

All this was intentionally fitted at exactly the same time after a very long wait for a new motor, so I assembled all these new parts in a dry workshop so that I could rubberise every connector (pic to follow) BEFORE it ever got wet to rule out trapping moisture in the connectors after my 2 years of Giant pain. (1st bike rejected, this one has had multiple motors, a battery, many control units etc)

I also silicon sealed the crappy fitting motor covers to the bike frame.
Plus I use a neoprene battery cover to protect that also, as well as a controller cover and battery connector waterproof fitting.

There is absolutely no way water is entering my electrics.
Yet, 358 miles later…


We had already tried battery in and out multiple times, clean connectors, bounce the bike, etc… mates battery was a last ditch attempt.
we then continued on and did another 5 miles trouble free using each other’s battery until my battery (In his bike), gave a red light so we called time on the ride. During that ride we stopped twice and tried the battery back in mine. Never worked.

Back at the car, we did the same and mine still wouldn’t power my bike, so we tried my second (fully charged) battery.
That also didn’t work which was the biggest surprise. 😮

Out of the three batteries, only my mates battery would power my bike. 🤷🏼‍♂️

Back at home after an hours drive in the rain with the bike on the back of the car, back at home all is well, all three batteries work and no fault can be found so of course, no point taking it to the shop for diagnostics. 🤬

Now I only want to ride if my mate can come too. 🧐

The only interesting thing out of this baffling mess, is that my mates 625 battery happens to be newer than both of mine.
I am wondering about battery firmware doing wiring/resistance/impedance checks….. 🧐

**Update / 28th June 2023**
This bike has had all its issues resolved and has now covered 18months of trouble free riding.
Read on to learn what the problem was...
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Hi, I have a Trance X E+ 2 PRO, I think -22. Had the bike 2,5 years and had problems with not turning on (whole motor assembly changed) and battery that´s loosing power when stationary in the garage. This spring it again refuses to start... Did You figure out what was wrong with your bike? Thanks, Mattias
 
Swedish Wiking said:
Hi, I have a Trance X E+ 2 PRO, I think -22. Had the bike 2,5 years and had problems with not turning on (whole motor assembly changed) and battery that´s loosing power when stationary in the garage. This spring it again refuses to start... Did You figure out what was wrong with your bike? Thanks, Mattias
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The answer is given in great detail in this topic.
 
Kiwiscoot said:
I gave up on the bike after I changed everything out for new components except for the motor. I sold it and I don't know if the buyer ever fixed it.
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Guess it´s just down to chinese quality. Too bad. Really like the bike when it´s running. Thanks/Mattias
 
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