Have Avinox given us a good thing (or not)?

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nickf

nickf

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I think Brian Cahill says it better than I can The Avinox Apocalypse

TLDR:
Are the new Avinox motors amazing? Yes!

Do we really need/want 1500W on a mountain bike, or should Avinox have given us something else? (Add vastly differing opinions here)

Will it be fun to ride with 1500W? Probably ! Would even more power be even more fun? Quite possibly! So why not just buy an e-moto?

Is the distinction between eMTBs and e-motos now blurred enough to attract the attention of the regulatory authorities? Quite possibly! Will this be a good thing for us mountain bikers? Almost certainly not!
 
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Not sure they're even remotely comparable even though everyone keeps comparing them ..

A surron light bee - about the smallest motored emoto is 6kw, most are about 12kw - the amflow has a peak of 1500.

However the e-moto gets this by a throttle, the Mountain bike requires the rider to pedal with considerable effort to achieve and maintain the assistance - it's an augmented human, not a teleportation device.

That's also ignoring the fact that you'll hopefully be going two or three times as fast going downhill as you would be when assisted anyway.
 
nickf said:
Will it be fun to ride with 1500W? Probably ! Would even more power be even more fun? Quite possibly! So why not just buy an e-moto?
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I have 2 x emoto's (Surron and Talaria) and they are not remotely the same in ride experience, other than having 2 wheels.

Ever since the dawn of mankind we've wanted progress

Horse, Automobiles, Planes.

We want progress, things to be faster. We want to race, to feel progress, to achieve things. Its in our DNA.

Do we need ebikes? no. Are they fun? Heck yeah. Are faster ebikes more fun. To me they are way more fun. Do we NEED it? No of course not. The same way we dont need Bugatti's, Ducati Panigales or £500 trainers.

Avinox is pushing things hard. There will be a physical barrier to weight / power and ride feel that will find its equalibriem soon. 1500w gives you less than 30 mins riding time if you max out the wattage. And the only way to increase that is new battery tech (a long way off) or bigger, heavier batteries, and the adverse side effects of adding more weight to a bike frame.
 
Rob Rides EMTB said:
I have 2 x emoto's (Surron and Talaria) and they are not remotely the same in ride experience, other than having 2 wheels.

Ever since the dawn of mankind we've wanted progress

Horse, Automobiles, Planes.

We want progress, things to be faster. We want to race, to feel progress, to achieve things. Its in our DNA.

Do we need ebikes? no. Are they fun? Heck yeah. Are faster ebikes more fun. To me they are way more fun. Do we NEED it? No of course not. The same way we dont need Bugatti's, Ducati Panigales or £500 trainers.

Avinox is pushing things hard. There will be a physical barrier to weight / power and ride feel that will find its equalibriem soon. 1500w gives you less than 30 mins riding time if you max out the wattage. And the only way to increase that is new battery tech (a long way off) or bigger, heavier batteries, and the adverse side effects of adding more weight to a bike frame.
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I think you said it best in your recent video, @Rob Rides EMTB .

Having all that power is useful for when needed but the rider is in control of how much they use at any point in time. The delivery of that power is important.

I've always disliked over-run or quick take-off from standstill when the bike wants to leave you behind. From what Rob stated, the DJI motor is receptive to the pressure applied by the rider. Stamp on it and its away, ease it in and it goes with you.
 
Before all brands stretched to Specialized and tried to beat them in all ways, now Amflow is dragging the innovation, if other brands want to beat Amflow power, components and price is king.
Specialized has several legs to stand on and can easily ditch emtb but I doubt it and are looking forward to next generation Levo.
 
Tonybro said:
I think you said it best in your recent video, @Rob Rides EMTB .

Having all that power is useful for when needed but the rider is in control of how much they use at any point in time. The delivery of that power is important.

I've always disliked over-run or quick take-off from standstill when the bike wants to leave you behind. From what Rob stated, the DJI motor is receptive to the pressure applied by the rider. Stamp on it and its away, ease it in and it goes with you.
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As a regular user of the forum I am finding it much less engaging and more often than not see no posts of any interest to me. One major reason for that is the large number of posts about Avinox or Amflow neither of which are of any interest to me. I ride both gen 3 Levo and Whyte e160RSX ( 90nm and 85nm respectively) and mostly use trail/ emtb modes with only occasional need for turbo. I know we all ride different terrain but as a UK rider I have no need for more power. I feel the emphasis on motor power is now overshadowing all the rest of emtb bike tech that contributes to how well a bike performs.
I also worry that whilst reviewers and users have some expertise and can justify the power increases as still within pedelec regulations, the regulators themselves plus politicians and the media....even the police.....are not as well informed. So justified or not we run a risk of further regulation. Always keep in mind mountain biking is just a small niche within the overall bicycle market and it is that much larger market which regulators would be focused on.
 
nickf said:
Is the distinction between eMTBs and e-motos now blurred enough to attract the attention of the regulatory authorities? Quite possibly! Will this be a good thing for us mountain bikers? Almost certainly not!
Click to expand...
Blurred yes in the general publics eye as we have a hard enough job educating the uneducated on the difference now so i get where your coming from totally ,
Of course as already said Above ^^ if you know the difference there not remotely the same but its not the few that need educating its the majority , and personally i do think quite frankly its going to fuck things up if were not careful for the pedelec .
 
Mikerb said:
As a regular user of the forum I am finding it much less engaging and more often than not see no posts of any interest to me. One major reason for that is the large number of posts about Avinox or Amflow neither of which are of any interest to me. I ride both gen 3 Levo and Whyte e160RSX ( 90nm and 85nm respectively) and mostly use trail/ emtb modes with only occasional need for turbo. I know we all ride different terrain but as a UK rider I have no need for more power. I feel the emphasis on motor power is now overshadowing all the rest of emtb bike tech that contributes to how well a bike performs.
I also worry that whilst reviewers and users have some expertise and can justify the power increases as still within pedelec regulations, the regulators themselves plus politicians and the media....even the police.....are not as well informed. So justified or not we run a risk of further regulation. Always keep in mind mountain biking is just a small niche within the overall bicycle market and it is that much larger market which regulators would be focused on.
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I have a bike with an Avinox motor (not Amflow, though) and I feel the same. The Avinox system is great and the brand is certainly innovating, but it's also overhyped. Among other things, because 1500w is ridiculously unnecessary. Way beyond what makes sense at all. I'd prefer that they focus on making the motors and batteries smaller and lighter. Then some integration would be great (broadcasting cyclist power to my GPS, for instance) and call it a day.
 
Rob Rides EMTB said:
We want progress, things to be faster. We want to race, to feel progress, to achieve things. Its in our DNA.

Do we need ebikes? no. Are they fun? Heck yeah. Are faster ebikes more fun. To me they are way more fun. Do we NEED it? No of course not. The same way we dont need Bugatti's, Ducati Panigales or £500 trainers.
Click to expand...

“Things to be faster”…

But, they’re not ‘faster’ right? I mean, they’re still assist limited to 25kph here in the UK aren’t they, or should be, so I guess you mean more powerful? I know that’s useful on technical steep climbs, but accelerating to 25kph a bit quicker, is that really ‘fun’?

I want people to be honest, is the Avinox motor as popular as it is because it’s lightweight, powerful, tunable with a great software package and somehow squeezes 1500w into the EPAC regulations, or is it because you can delimit it with just a VPN?

Sure, you’ve got a de-restriction section on the website, and would no doubt prefer chat about that in there, but you can’t divorce the two things I don’t think. Who is reviewing any Avinox bike with the UK assist limit, why is it rarely mentioned or conveniently glossed over?

The Bugatti’s, Ducati’s and £500 trainers aren’t really relevant here, they’re all legal products intended for a legal market and need to be used in a particular way to be legal. An Avinox e-bike is legal in the UK too, but how much further can things be pushed before it makes a mockery of the ‘250w nominal’ regulations?

I know some people don’t really want to talk about this, but if you of all people can’t see what we’re sleepwalking into here in the UK and elsewhere then we probably deserve all we get really.
 
Ratcliff1893 said:
An ebike is an assisted bicycle. E-bikes are now going far beyond what e-bikes set out to provide. The line has been crossed!
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No a Pedelec is an assisted bicycle and this is one of the major separation problems with the general public and governments.
The "Ebike" is too much of a blanket description (y)
 
Fangs2k said:
“Things to be faster”…

But, they’re not ‘faster’ right? I mean, they’re still assist limited to 25kph here in the UK aren’t they, or should be, so I guess you mean more powerful? I know that’s useful on technical steep climbs, but accelerating to 25kph a bit quicker, is that really ‘fun’?

I want people to be honest, is the Avinox motor as popular as it is because it’s lightweight, powerful, tunable with a great software package and somehow squeezes 1500w into the EPAC regulations, or is it because you can delimit it with just a VPN?

Sure, you’ve got a de-restriction section on the website, and would no doubt prefer chat about that in there, but you can’t divorce the two things I don’t think. Who is reviewing any Avinox bike with the UK assist limit, why is it rarely mentioned or conveniently glossed over?

The Bugatti’s, Ducati’s and £500 trainers aren’t really relevant here, they’re all legal products intended for a legal market and need to be used in a particular way to be legal. An Avinox e-bike is legal in the UK too, but how much further can things be pushed before it makes a mockery of the ‘250w nominal’ regulations?

I know some people don’t really want to talk about this, but if you of all people can’t see what we’re sleepwalking into here in the UK and elsewhere then we probably deserve all we get really.
Click to expand...
I think you can argue the Avinox will make a bike faster, in so far as you can probably, more easily, hit the speed limit when climbing given the huge power output. Clearly, flat and downhill shouldn’t be influenced, but uphill I’d venture to say you can ride faster. Now, if that makes the perception of cyclists any worse than coming across some walkers when you are speeding on a downhill section I don’t know, but it gives existing bellends who have no trail etiquette, greater opportunities to be bellends and cause issues. For example, a KOM segment might be raced uphill now, when otherwise it wasn’t, because Avinox.

I also think that with great power, there should be a better way to prevent derestriction. Using a VPN seems too easy, so you are now potentially riding a powerful ebike that can rip uphill and on the flat at 30mph. That’s not going to end well, IMO.
 
Fangs2k said:
“Things to be faster”…

But, they’re not ‘faster’ right? I mean, they’re still assist limited to 25kph here in the UK aren’t they, or should be, so I guess you mean more powerful? I know that’s useful on technical steep climbs, but accelerating to 25kph a bit quicker, is that really ‘fun’?

I want people to be honest, is the Avinox motor as popular as it is because it’s lightweight, powerful, tunable with a great software package and somehow squeezes 1500w into the EPAC regulations, or is it because you can delimit it with just a VPN?

Sure, you’ve got a de-restriction section on the website, and would no doubt prefer chat about that in there, but you can’t divorce the two things I don’t think. Who is reviewing any Avinox bike with the UK assist limit, why is it rarely mentioned or conveniently glossed over?

The Bugatti’s, Ducati’s and £500 trainers aren’t really relevant here, they’re all legal products intended for a legal market and need to be used in a particular way to be legal. An Avinox e-bike is legal in the UK too, but how much further can things be pushed before it makes a mockery of the ‘250w nominal’ regulations?

I know some people don’t really want to talk about this, but if you of all people can’t see what we’re sleepwalking into here in the UK and elsewhere then we probably deserve all we get really.
Click to expand...
More accurate to say faster uphill I think. The last gen of motors wouldn't really get you to the limiter on steep climbs. Now with 1,000w+ it's easy to hit the limiter on said climbs.
 
Rockhopper70 said:
I think you can argue the Avinox will make a bike faster, in so far as you can probably, more easily, hit the speed limit when climbing given the huge power output. Clearly, flat and downhill shouldn’t be influenced, but uphill I’d venture to say you can ride faster. Now, if that makes the perception of cyclists any worse than coming across some walkers when you are speeding on a downhill section I don’t know, but it gives existing bellends who have no trail etiquette, greater opportunities to be bellends and cause issues. For example, a KOM segment might be raced uphill now, when otherwise it wasn’t, because Avinox.

I also think that with great power, there should be a better way to prevent derestriction. Using a VPN seems too easy, so you are now potentially riding a powerful ebike that can rip uphill and on the flat at 30mph. That’s not going to end well, IMO.
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Just because you are licensed and insured for a car, does not mean you won't go over the speed limit or do other dangerous things. Same with an EMTB, there is an element of personal responsibility here. I see Suron clones on the trail all the time, let's start there because they are much easier to spot.
 
Drove a 65nm Bosch First Time. 9 Gear 34t Front and 36t rear. My Buddy with they same Drivetrain say „Lets Drive this Wineyard above. Dont think wee ever arrive,but! It was enough Power for my 250lbs plus Bike in 2020. Buy a Levo SL Alloy at 2954 Euros Last Month and its funny. Today i Ride CX4 750 170mm and its Heavy. DJI is light but the Frame has only 2.25 Kilo. I broke Heavyer Frames! Most weight they lost on the Frame!
 
Powerslider said:
The bike industry sees the excitement behind a more powerful motor coming to market. Only fools would be thinking about throwing a wet blanket on this fire.
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Unless this results in the right to ride eMTBs on regular bike trails getting torched, of course (in the UK for instance).
 
Now,they Sell 150nm with RS 35 Fork. I new some of them with CX4. They are Not really happy! But the prices of the new Avinox is as high as bevor with older Motors. Now the Sell your another Bike.
SAME PROCEDERE AS EVERY YEAR
 
Clearly according to users Avinox/Amflow has more to offer than just headline motor output figures so it is curious they were not prepared to compete on that basis without starting a risky power war. Whilst there have been overall industry improvements we are still sold bikes that have engineering weaknesses including poor waterproofing, and drivetrain designs from 100+ years ago....and at prices that could buy a decent second hand car. I think new players like Amflow have proven that there are now few secrets in terms of frame design or component selection......just study a few of the best regarded emtbs and copy them! It does not take us forward though does it?
As for derestriction the forum should not, in my opinion, host discussion on it at all since a delimited bike is no longer a pedelec/EAPC.
 
I think they have gone too far.
But the market has spoken. The majority of people want more power.

I am more interested with the down and want motor power to get me to the top of the hill for more laps. But I dont want tol much weight and running mega watts and nm justs smashes batteries to fast, so you need heavier batteries.

I ride mostly on 500w 70nm mode on my bosch and only run 100nm/750w mode for short squirts on tp clear technical sections.

Im mostly interested in better energy density batteries.
 

Rob Rides EMTB said:
Ever since the dawn of mankind we've wanted progress

Horse, Automobiles, Planes.

We want progress,
Its in our DNA.
Click to expand...
I totally agree! And although I've never owned a horse I do own a car and have owned an aircraft in the past. So, yes I think progress is great.... as long as it's good for us.

But when the horse was the state of the art mode of transport you didn't need a license to ride it, nor insurance or a registration plate, and no obligatory annual independent roadworthiness checks. That all changed when we got the car. And you're normally not allowed to drive a car where you can ride your horse on a bridleway.

And of course there's even more regulatory requirements and restrictions if you want to fly an aircraft.

But that's all fine because none of these regulatory restrictions that inevitably follow this progress has any impact on the horse rider who is still free to ride his horse just as before.

And there's the rub! Will we be able to say the same for the pedal assist mountain bicycle?

It's great to see the technology development of the humble bicycle into the extraordinary eMTBs that we ride today. The new Avinox motors are another step in that development and whether I personally want a more powerful bike or not is neither here nor there. Whatever works for me, YMMV.

But the question we need to find an answer to is how do we ensure the ongoing freedom from new regulations that we currently enjoy with today's bikes whilst still allowing new and potentially exciting developments to continue?
 
I find it interesting people believe that because we get hyped about a motor system that we negate the ride-ability of a bike. The same way all the motors are “good”, all the bikes are now pretty damn good too. When you buy an e-bike, the motor/battery is a huge part of that cost. So of course we want to nerd out and get what we think is best.

I’ll standup for the power crew here. There’s already regulations and class I is class I. It doesn’t matter how fast you get to the class I speed limit does it? I want the power and I’m excited about the power. I think that’s really cool you ride 20nm. Good for you. But who are you to say I shouldn’t need anything more?

I just don’t get all the talk. You think getting up to class I speed or whatever on a trail is any more dangerous than bombing down a hill people are going up? When you’re under power you’re in control. When I’m full send power off going downhill I am taking way more risk for myself and anyone else on the trail. I truly don’t think any amount of pedal assist (key word pedal assist) is going to make things that much more dangerous. Especially when it’s still capped out at whatever your local class regulations are.
 
irie said:
Unless this results in the right to ride eMTBs on regular bike trails getting torched, of course (in the UK for instance).
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Bikes have been getting more and more powerful; while the trend line shows trail access broadening. There's nothing indicating power is threatening access.
 
nickf said:
I totally agree! And although I've never owned a horse I do own a car and have owned an aircraft in the past. So, yes I think progress is great.... as long as it's good for us.

But when the horse was the state of the art mode of transport you didn't need a license to ride it, nor insurance or a registration plate, and no obligatory annual independent roadworthiness checks. That all changed when we got the car. And you're normally not allowed to drive a car where you can ride your horse on a bridleway.

And of course there's even more regulatory requirements and restrictions if you want to fly an aircraft.

But that's all fine because none of these regulatory restrictions that inevitably follow this progress has any impact on the horse rider who is still free to ride his horse just as before.

And there's the rub! Will we be able to say the same for the pedal assist mountain bicycle?

It's great to see the technology development of the humble bicycle into the extraordinary eMTBs that we ride today. The new Avinox motors are another step in that development and whether I personally want a more powerful bike or not is neither here nor there. Whatever works for me, YMMV.

But the question we need to find an answer to is how do we ensure the ongoing freedom from new regulations that we currently enjoy with today's bikes whilst still allowing new and potentially exciting developments to continue?
Click to expand...
By focusing on developments that improve the reliability and reduce the maintenance costs of riding an emtb. We have motors that allow water ingress, electronics inadequately protected from weather and trail conditions, ancient chain and derailleur drivetrains that need cleaning every ride and still wear our in less than a 1000 miles, bearings largely exposed to mud and grit, tyres that are close in cost to car tyre costs , suspension components at eye watering prices. I know emtb is a niche market so volumes are comparatively low but there is still room for profit with emtbs better equipped to deal with the actual conditions they are ridden in.
 
Never tested avinox, but i'm really interested. Not by the max power, i never use boost mode on my bikes. But i find their technicals choice; planetary (mecanical constraints better controled => less weight), multipoint sensor (better control of motor effiency) pertinent. I understand that their soft motor management are better than all other brands, low noise, less overheat, less weight. Why everybody speak only about is max powerfull , who the majority said they will never used it ?
 
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