Endurafrica
Member
Avinox does very well inthe current 'throw away culture'. And the hyped up consumer doesnt give a toss where his old shit lands, nor does Avinox.
Where does Avinox go from here?
- Thread starter FrogSkunk
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- dji avinox
lol why are you calling out Avinox as if any of the other brands are easy to work on or not in “throw away culture”.
Here are some things I'd like to see in the ebike market (not just Avinox/motor issues):
- MGU, as others have said.
- Less battery weight near the head tube (also applies to MGU). I haven't ridden an Avinox bike yet, but all ebikes with >500 Wh batteries feel to me like the front end is too heavy, because putting a big battery in the down tube forces weight up near the head tube. The Elyte Evo and Lapierre Overvolt GLP Team 2023 had the right idea, keeping the battery low and central, but people didn't like the looks. So the challenge is either to persuade people to care more about performance than aesthetics (good luck with that) or design a pretty bike with good weight distribution.
- A faster charger, or more bikes with removable batteries. On self-shuttling enduro/park days I can get through 2kwh of battery. At 12 A (about 500 W) the Avinox fast charger is reasonably fast, but it could get much faster without any advances in battery tech. I've made my own batteries with Molicel P50B cells that can theoretically charge at over 50A (though my adjustable charger only goes up to 20A), so you can get a full charge in an 800 W battery in about half an hour, which is about how long you want your breaks to be. Even a boost to 20A (which might be possible with their current batteries) would help.
- Easier to self-service.
- Higher speed cutoff (but that's legal, not technical).
- Lower prices (e.g. more alloy/steel frames).
- More frame-only options.
- More frames rated for dual crown forks, more 170-190mm DC forks aimed at e-enduro bikes, and more affordable DC forks (e.g. why not a 29er version of the Bomber?).
- More size options (like Atherton), more geo adjustability (like Crestline and Nicolai, but more so), and/or shorter seat tubes (to allow sizing up). I have to choose a bike primarily based on whether they have a size that fits, as I'm normally between medium and large. There's no reason not to have ZS56/ZS56 headsets (or larger?) to allow reach adjustments, but a new approach that allows more radical reach adjust would be ideal. Why not have a long, oval headset with inserts/cups that change it by up to, say, 30mm? Example: The Crestline is DC fork-compatible, has a removable battery, and has lots of adjustability (travel, chainstays, BB height, reach, etc). But even with its 56/56 headset you can only change reach by about 5mm, so the S2 (medium) is too short for my preference and the S3 (large) has a massive 450mm seat tube so I can't size up.
- More demo bikes so we can test ride before buying.
- A 7-9 speed drivetrain with >500% range. I've got XT linkglide with 11-50t cassette, which is fine, but I don't need 11s (actually hinders shifting when doing repeated laps of a short DH/jump track), but I do want at least that much range in gearing. Seems to be difficult with standard mechs as big jumps between cogs make shifting harder, so might have to wait for a gearbox.
- Lighter Linkglide cassettes with similar durability.
- More comfortable saddles!
rockymountaindude
Member
Why are you just so focused on power like that is all there is?
There is a lot of things that still can be done with eBike motors.
One is an integrated automatic transmission, so gears change automatically based on chain tension and other sensor feedback.
Another is regenerative braking and regenerative coasting. Taking a page from EVs… eBikes could regenerate their batteries when brakes are applied and when coasting/going downhill without brakes being applied.
And then what has been talked about: less weight, better battery efficiency.
Power is getting silly: my position is we don’t need more power. It’s all marketing and hype. Anything above 85 Nm isn’t necessary.
Longer warranties! 2 years seems pretty short. It doesn't even account for milage. You could have less than a 1000 miles on your bike and still be out of warranty after 2 years. I would definitely take a 5 year or 10,000 miles warranty over any increase in power.
This ^ along with a gearbox and belt drive. It’s time to get rid of the derailleur once and for all. Virtually no maintenance paired with all of the power and efficiency.
Heckler Sb130
Member
More user interface, More Gadgets and More Power
bmwpowere36m3
Member
I think the focus is on power, because lately that's all these drive units are doing better with each evolution. All those other things they should focus on, but maybe power is the easiest thing to iterate on and sell via spec sheet.
A serviceable motor is great, but is it very marketable? Folks are flocking to Avinox not because it offers anything other than tremendous power, lets be honest. I'm sure the hype will peter out and the field will level out... Bosch will be forced to either maintain their "moral" stance on power output or give-in and follow suite to Avinox. Rumors suggest Bosch is working a software update to the CX for more power. Until government regulation forces someone's hand, the brands are going to escalate to maintain an "advantage". Avinox has already shown, they are willing to push the limits with their initial release and now their v2.
That said, we already see Avinox motor ouput is heavily derated when outputting 1000W... I suspect this next generation will be the same, if not more derating. I don't think within a year, they magically unlocked thermal efficiency to allow more continuous power. This 1300W we don't know how long it can really output that for... it could BS marketing number, maybe not.
Mario Antony
Active member
I understand the quest for power.
"Mo'powa always mo'better"
Sure, product managers can supply plenty of adjectives on their reports, for Board Decision shift to less POWERFULL motors, making it possible the: HPR60, SX, Specialized SL, Fazua, etc
But making less POWER, manufacturers focus on LESSweight, making compromises like 300/350wh batteries, because less power, means less energy consumed.
But weighweeny syndrome kicks in, and bikes comes with thin paper tires (like maxxis Exo, just for example), and other components that limit/compromise ebike capability.
Manufacturers can blend Power & Weight:
1) 48V systems = ++ efficient (less current for same power)
2) Maintain HPR/Fazua style casing, but giving extra juice, like for example 500/600W (SX already makes 600W), and around 80/90Nm
3) Rapid Charge up to 16A or even higher, like 20A/25A making extra batteries unecessary
[edit: Better if we could choose between a rapid charging or a slower one - like in Mobile phones]
4) Battery between 400Wh to 600Wh for less weight.
5) Ebikes around 20kg or less, with reinforced tires and true suspensions [Edit: 38/Zeb/Mezzer]
I don't feel the need for MGU, for many reasons:
1) Cost
2) Efficiency - just ride a internal gear hub and you'll feel the difference (even after breakin)
3) Weight
4) Complexity / reliability (at the beginning)
5) Maintaince
I'm really interested in the new Fuel EXe, but need to test ride, because I'm afraid 60Nm, won't cut the mostard on some very steep and technical climb, that I can only achieve by Moto, or Ebike.
"Mo'powa always mo'better"
Sure, product managers can supply plenty of adjectives on their reports, for Board Decision shift to less POWERFULL motors, making it possible the: HPR60, SX, Specialized SL, Fazua, etc
But making less POWER, manufacturers focus on LESSweight, making compromises like 300/350wh batteries, because less power, means less energy consumed.
But weighweeny syndrome kicks in, and bikes comes with thin paper tires (like maxxis Exo, just for example), and other components that limit/compromise ebike capability.
Manufacturers can blend Power & Weight:
1) 48V systems = ++ efficient (less current for same power)
2) Maintain HPR/Fazua style casing, but giving extra juice, like for example 500/600W (SX already makes 600W), and around 80/90Nm
3) Rapid Charge up to 16A or even higher, like 20A/25A making extra batteries unecessary
[edit: Better if we could choose between a rapid charging or a slower one - like in Mobile phones]
4) Battery between 400Wh to 600Wh for less weight.
5) Ebikes around 20kg or less, with reinforced tires and true suspensions [Edit: 38/Zeb/Mezzer]
I don't feel the need for MGU, for many reasons:
1) Cost
2) Efficiency - just ride a internal gear hub and you'll feel the difference (even after breakin)
3) Weight
4) Complexity / reliability (at the beginning)
5) Maintaince
I'm really interested in the new Fuel EXe, but need to test ride, because I'm afraid 60Nm, won't cut the mostard on some very steep and technical climb, that I can only achieve by Moto, or Ebike.
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An even faster fast charger would be handy.
My 1.5kw powerbank charges fully in 60mins.
A fully charged avinox battery in 30mins vs the 30% they do currently. That would be awesome.
My 1.5kw powerbank charges fully in 60mins.
A fully charged avinox battery in 30mins vs the 30% they do currently. That would be awesome.
Canyon Shawn
Active member
What’s coming in the future is a motor that doesn’t need shifting. That means no derailleur or no gearbox.
Wilbur
Active member
I think the manufacturer that makes a reliable and serviceable motor will likely win the day. Reputation is everything
BEGIN RANT>
I was reminded yesterday, that even if you ride super carefully, the derailleur, cassette and chain, are just a massive PITA.
Three times I had to stop and clear them of debris, meaning I fell way behind my riding group, nearly losing them in the bush.
One was a soft leafy plant wrapped itself around my cassette and dragged my derailleur into the cassette. Another was a twig that jammed itself between gears 6 and 7, so gears above 6 were fine. But the transmission just binded itself as soon as I tried to shift below gear 6. And last was a tough grassy plant that wrapped itself around my cage wheels.
I find it ridiculous that the EMTB industry is persisting with this technology. FFS ....... DJI and Avinox. Please build an MGU that performs as well as your M1 system combined with the SRAM AXS Transmission. It will sell like hotcakes on a wintery morning !!!
<END RANT
sethimus
😠 Donald Duck 😠
they should model it they way pinion does it with their gearboxes, you send them in, they rebuild them completely and your warranty starts again. when the eu gets serious about right 2 repair, something like this must emerge anyways
Mario Antony
Active member
With the use of big cogs on the cassettes (+50), derailleurs started to have longer cages to catch all extra chain slack that you have once moving to the 10t cog.
Long Cages & 27.5wheels, are a problem, because cages become close to the ground, catches anything and/or get picked and destroyes your derailleur (sometimes).
I was on that "train", wishing for internal gears, and really thought about buying a Rohloff hub and spending over 1300euros to have a trouble free ebike.
I gave a try to a shorter derailleur (for all geeks out there, changed the SGS for a SG), and a smaller BIG cog cassette (51t to 43t).
To my surprise, I stopped having issues. No more twigs/branches being caught, just a problem free ride.
Internal gears have several issues:
Efficiency - more power consumption and you'll notice the cog drag
Price & Repair costs
Manufacturing tolerances & Reability
Sure, you'll be able to run belts, or the same chain forever, but in a time where motors are still showing problems, would WE want to add the complexity and a source of problems by adding a gearbox to the motor?
Make Motors reliable and Repairable first.
Bosch do not have a moral stance. They’ve created and funded a debate shaped around the capabilities of their product range. It’s an impressive influencing campaign, however Bosch have no moral high ground just a halo bought with its paid for influencers, industry forums and marketing material.
It’s a genius move from Bosch and their business acumen is remarkable
.bmwpowere36m3
Member
Bosch do not have a moral stance. They’ve created and funded a debate shaped around the capabilities of their product range. It’s an impressive influencing campaign, however Bosch have no moral high ground just a halo bought with its paid for influencers, industry forums and marketing material.
It’s a genius move from Bosch and their business acumen is remarkable
Hence the quotes around moral... but its not just Bosch, all the legacy players basically adhered to existing regulation. EU 250W thermal continuous, to Austria's 600W peak (which came and went), to USA 750W peak. I'm sure they help shape regulation, like most manufactorers in industry do.
Folks make it seem like Bosch, Shimano and others are incapable of making a 1000W motor and Avinox is making them shake in their boots. I think Avinox was more willing to distrupt and put out a product which isn't as universally legal in all markets. Not to mention features that can be seen as questionable, such as: on-the-fly I vs. III class and internet/location based limits (which can be VPN'd for advantage).
All that said, I'm happy Avinox is shaking things up... competition at the end of the day is good for us.
The new Avinox motors are _highly rumoured_ to use the same mounting locations/holes as the current motor - that means you can upgrade your bike without 'throwing it away' (if the rumours are to be believed)
Has any other manufacturer done this to date?
All Shimano motors have used the same mounting locations, but when the switched to the ep801 / ep6 they changed the voltage. So, to upgrade from an older motor to a newer .motor, you have to change everything in the system. Motor, battery, controller, display and wiring.
TheKaiser
Active member
I am all for keeping the same mounting locations, so bravo to them for it, but to fulfill our collective dream, they also need to actually sell the motors to people looking to upgrade. I'm trying to give them the benefit of the doubt, as they're having to get a lot of infrastructure rolled out quickly, but they haven't even made it clear if/how one could buy an existing M1 motor if you wanted a spare, and that is for a motor that has been on the market for a couple of years now. Hopefully they're just getting their act together, but I'm not super optimistic about switching to an M2 being an easy off-the-shelf purchase on their website. It seems downright foolish to me, though, because they could be selling upgrade motors to a substantial number of existing users, earning more money from each customer, and making substantially more on a per-unit basis than they'd be getting from selling that same motor through their OEM sales, due to the higher retail pricing.
My commuter Ebike is FWD hub with rear belt drive and 8 speed internal gears. 6 years and 15,000km and I have done nothing but change pads and tyres.
I do zero maintenance, other than wipe it down every 6 months. Meanwhile it's a fortnightly process on my EMTB with the derailleur, chain and cassette.
For an EMTB. Belt drive and internal gears is just going to be the best formula. Whether those gears are in the motor or in the hub, it's not a deal breaker. But obviously, in the motor lends itself to better unsprung mass.
Rando_12345
E*POWAH Master
To be fair my wife has an e-commuter with 5,000km and a regular drivetrain. I oil it every 6 months and look at the pads every year... Commuters and road bike barely need any maintenance at all.
Couldn't disagree more if you want safety and a long lasting ebike.
I wouldn't be surprised if Amflow disappear, once DJI have enough OEMs buying their motor - which seems to be about now.
I don't imagine they want to be a bike manufacturer as such, and think they developed the AMFLOW to get the motor to market, generate interest and prove reliability. The profit, I would have thought, will be in the motor/battery supply...
Who's buying an AMFLOW if they can pick up a legacy brand with the Avinox motor, unless on price?
I think initially that was their plan but because the Amflow was the only bike available for a long time with the motor it's actually picked up a decent userbase and has probably been a bit of an unexpected surprise for them. The fact that they've revised the frame and have more models for MY2027 suggests they will keep it around for a while yet.
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That's my thoughts too, they will simply stop selling bikes and focus on the motor.
bafang. since 2017: M500, M600, M510, M620 etc... . In add you can use custom battery and chose in 3 various power supply (36V, 43V, 48V), just need to upload adapted software revision.
Solid state has been said to be changing everything in the next 3 years, 12 years ago. I would not hold my breath for it.
MGU is a game changer, don't matter much what people could think without having testing it and really ride it on great bike for real rides. Weight is so perfectly balanced alongside all benefit that it is a game changer on any kind of bike even analog.
Still Pinion is not yet as refined as we want to be mass market but they are really close. Avinox could play that part but let's be honest, MGU is still niche and it would be a too bold move for them.
Still Pinion is not yet as refined as we want to be mass market but they are really close. Avinox could play that part but let's be honest, MGU is still niche and it would be a too bold move for them.
slickrock
Well-known member
Complete agreement on MGU as next big take from DJI.
If you are talking about reducing the number of gears in a traditional spur-gearbox like Pinion, then yes, less gears will make a simpler and lighter setup. Intradrive for example took this approach and their drive is more compact and lighter weight than Pinon's current MGU offering, though gear range took a hit, though one could argue that less range (along with gear steps) is tolerable for electric vs. analog.
But I'd argue that we don't need a gearbox per say like what Owuru/E2 is trying to do. DJI could go with a Hybrid Drive stepless, which could leverage the planetary gear setup already inside the motor, that way, with software control, setup as many steps as you desire to control the bike or switch modes to a cadence-based, motor power-curve based, or motor-efficiency based continuous/stepless transmission.
Or, go with a fixed transmission, high-rev, wide power-band motor, like what is inside performance EV vehicles - i.e. super high torque off the line and let the motor rev out at high speeds. Rivian is work on such a motor right now with ALSO TM-B, which will be out in April. They take a pedal-by-wire approach, and though not exactly an EMTB, I can see Avinox taking this approach as well.
This is why I would prefer the term MTU, as in Motor Transmission Unit, as it better describes the product without forcing us to think of a solution than involves multiple spur-gear carriages like with a pinion gearbox. I just want Avinox to think outside of the (gear) box.
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