Wheelies

[dowlenE]

So, I have had my Cannondale Neo for couple of months, but I have not mastered controlling the front wheel. (Wheelies manuals) I can wheelie on a motorcycle and a regular bike. ????????
Has anyone else encountered this?
Thanks, jeremy

 

[Mikerb]

More to do with different geometry to your other bike than it being an emtb...probably.

 

[Gary]

Wheelies are odd to hold as the motor assist adds torque to the natural pedal pressure you're used to having to put in to keep the front up. use a low assistance mode (or an intutive one) and just practice. Brake dragging might help. especially if you wheely motorcycles. (I don't brake drag wheelying or manualling).

What are you having trouble with manualling?
Holding it?
or raising the front to balance point?

Holding a manual is just the same as an ordinary bike but input force/timing are slightly different.
raising the front just needs far more pre-load, a far harder leg kick and an exagerated rearwards weight shift.

 

[dowlenE]

Wheelies are odd to hold as the motor assist adds torque to the natural pedal pressure you're used to having to put in to keep the front up. use a low assistance mode (or an intutive one) and just practice. Brake dragging might help. especially if you wheely motorcycles. (I don't brake drag wheelying or manualling).

What are you having trouble with manualling?
Holding it?
or raising the front to balance point?

Holding a manual is just the same as an ordinary bike but input force/timing are slightly different.
raising the front just needs far more pre-load, a far harder leg kick and an exagerated rearwards weight shift.

I guess I need more time on the bike period.

 

[Rusty]

Meh - wheelies & manuals are vastly different in my mind. Personally I am shit at both and always have been. Even on MX bikes when I was racing International level I could not hold a show wheelie for love nor money but for obstacles it was no bother.

 

[Gary]

Yeah. they're different
as is a coaster wheelie
or a stood up pedal wheelie.
but not vastly.

I learned to wheelie sat down or stood up at around 8 or 9 years old on a racer and used to wheelie all the way home from primary school every afternoon. (about a mile and included a few corners). I didn't learn to manual wasn't until 12 or 13 on a BMX.
I do both brakeless (not without brakes fitted but no brake dragging at all). I really should learn coaster wheelies to get the hang of brake dragging while doing wheelies and manuals it'd be massively helpful with the motor.

Despite mtb skills coaches calling them manuals popping the front wheel up to get over/onto an obsticle isn't really a manual and pedalling it up isn't really a wheelie. (neither really count if not held IMO)

Never seen anyone hold a manual on a motorcycle.
ie. rolling (downhill) clutch in (or out of gear) and held by the riders weight rather than throttle. - it's definitely do-able though.
All the motorcycle guys I know who can wheelie for miles do it sat down brake dragging. (hence my comment to dowlenE)

 

[dowlenE]

Yeah. they're different
as is a coaster wheelie
or a stood up pedal wheelie.
but not vastly.

I learned to wheelie sat down or stood up at around 8 or 9 years old on a racer and used to wheelie all the way home from primary school every afternoon. (about a mile and included a few corners). I didn't learn to manual wasn't until 12 or 13 on a BMX.
I do both brakeless (not without brakes fitted but no brake dragging at all). I really should learn coaster wheelies to get the hang of brake dragging while doing wheelies and manuals it'd be massively helpful with the motor.

Despite mtb skills coaches calling them manuals popping the front wheel up to get over/onto an obsticle isn't really a manual and pedalling it up isn't really a wheelie. (neither really count if not held IMO)

Never seen anyone hold a manual on a motorcycle.
ie. rolling (downhill) clutch in (or out of gear) and held by the riders weight rather than throttle. - it's definitely do-able though.
All the motorcycle guys I know who can wheelie for miles do it sat down brake dragging. (hence my comment to dowlenE)

Definitely more rear brake while wheeling a motorcycle.

 

[Gary]

I'm not a motorcyclist at all but have ridden motorbikes a little bit. (mainly trials and MX bikes) When I have ridden I rarely ever touched the rear brake and can't hold a wheelie on an motorcycle at all, just pop the front over obsticles (like rusty described).

On the Emtb just keep practicing. If you can wheelie/manual a regular non assisted mtb you'll get the hang of the Ebike fairly quickly.

 

[Mikerb]

My experience with the levo (22kg) compared to my Cube Stereo (13kg) as far as manualling is concerned has been that the squat and go back move has to be much more explosive and the my bum needs to be virtually touching the tyre. The Cube is 27.5 and the Levo 29....maybe that plus the extra weight is the reason. So for me at least the saddle has to right down.

 

[andytiedye]

I am not able to produce enough torque to get the front wheel up more than 11 inches on a regular ("clockwork") mtb, and it never stays up more than half a second because I am less than halfway to the balance point at best. Useless for clearing obstacles, as the wheel just slams right into them. I am physically unable to loop out on less than a 60% grade on a pedal mtb.

I can get it a little bit higher and a little bit longer on my Pivot Shuttle, but still can't reach the balance point on level ground. The clutch is somewhat of an impediment here, and I only have a few weeks of practice on the ebike, compared to years on the pedal bike.

 

[Gary]

I am not able to produce enough torque to get the front wheel up more than 11 inches on a regular ("clockwork") mtb

do you mean because you have a disability or something?
Because if not you most certainly will have enough torque.
you simply have to use a low gear and accelerate.
ie. preload the fork and as it rebounds you simultaniously accelerate while moving your mass rearwards. done properly you don't even really need to pull on the bars (just hang rearwards from them)

The clutch

What?

 

[Gary]

My experience with the levo (22kg) compared to my Cube Stereo (13kg) as far as manualling is concerned has been that the squat and go back move has to be much more explosive and the my bum needs to be virtually touching the tyre.

Try kicking the cranks forwards harder.
I don't mean pedalling. i mean pushing the BB (and rear wheel) forwards while you simultaniously lean back. (just after you've pre-loaded the bike and it's still rebounding)
You don't actually need to do a "L" shape shift as most mtb skills coaches teach at all.

 

[andytiedye]

do you mean because you have a disability or something?

Something certainly, I have no fast-twitch muscle AT ALL, so anything "explosive" isn't going to happen. That probably doesn't count as a disability, since it only affects athletic skills that require an "explosive" surge of power.

Because if not you most certainly will have enough torque.

It would require much more torque for me than most, due to my small stature. A taller rider can get their weight back much further than I can, which would make it much easier.

you simply have to use a low gear and accelerate.
ie. preload the fork and as it rebounds you simultaniously accelerate while moving your mass rearwards.

That is what I do. It does not work, and has not improved with practice (LOTS of practice).
Of course, my lack of fast-twitch power prevents me from fully compressing the fork, so I don't get much boost from there. I have tried all the low gears. Not enough. Not even close. The motor assist gets me a little closer.

The clutch on the assist introduces a delay, so it is not available during the initial 1/4 second or so that produces all of the lift (after that, the bike is moving faster, so pedaling produces very little lift if any). The bike uses the Shimano E8000 system.

 

[Gary]

It would require much more torque for me than most, due to my small stature. A taller rider can get their weight back much further than I can, which would make it much easier.

not for a sit down wheelie
I've taught 12yr old kids who probably don't weigh 6st to wheelie 26" bikes that were too big for them.
all it requires is a low gear. a willingness to learn and to overcome the fear of raising the front wheel high enough. a lot of patience and a lot of practice.
no explosiveness needed really.

Of course, my lack of fast-twitch power prevents me from fully compressing the suspension, so I don't get much boost from there. I have tried all the low gears. Not enough. Not even close.

You don't need to compress the suspension. in fact you don't need suspension at all. pre-loading the front is just to give the front wheel some energy to pop up.
I learned to wheelie at around 8 yrs old on a (small) adult racing bike.

The motor assist gets me a little closer.

this makes me think you're really not shifting your weight enough (and your timing is probably out).

I don't really understand what you mean by having no fast-twitch muscle AT ALL tho. do you mean none at all in any the muscles in your body at all?
Do you mind me asking why? [edit] maybe i mean "how?"

 

[andytiedye]

all it requires is a low gear. a willingness to learn and to overcome the fear of raising the front wheel high enough. a lot of patience and a lot of practice.

It isn't fear of looping out, since I have plenty of experience with grabbing a handful of brake to avoid looping out when the climb gets too steep. I can also loop out intentionally by setting the bike a the bottom of such a grade and mashing the pedals. Can't do it on an easy grade or level ground though. I have been struggling with this for years. The wheel comes up for the 1/4 revolution between about the 1 o'clock and 4 o'clock positions (provided my speed is less than 3 mph) then immediately drops.

You don't need to compress the suspension. in fact you don't need suspension at all. pre-loading the front is just to give the front wheel some energy to pop up.

The more suspension, the less I can get the wheel up. This is unsurprising, since the job of the suspension is to keep the wheels in contact with the ground. My full-suspension pedal bike only comes up half as far as my hardtail. My ebike comes up further, cause motor.

this makes me think you're really not shifting your weight enough

I am as far back as I can possibly get. Do you mean I'm not shifting my weight explosively enough?

(and your timing is probably out).

but...

done properly you don't even really need to pull on the bars (just hang rearwards from them)

If so, timing should not be super-critical, just hang rearwards the whole time while pedaling. That barely gets the wheel off the ground though.

I don't really understand what you mean by having no fast-twitch muscle AT ALL tho. do you mean none at all in any the muscles in your body at all?

Yes. Also non-responder to the kind of exercise that is supposed to build such muscle.
This has also been evident in every other athletic activity I have attempted.

Do you mind me asking why? [edit] maybe i mean "how?"

It is genetic from all the information I have been able to gather. Marathoners don't become sprinters or visa-versa. Some of us do not even produce the essential enzyme for type 2b muscle.

 

[Mikerb]

This may help....or not!
Firstly think about the geometry. Depending on the length of the chainstays the bike will not ride solely on ghe rear wheel unless the bulk of your weight is over or behjnd the back axle. The bulk of your weight is ddcined by the position of your hips....provided your upper body is also acting down through your hips, not forward over the bars. Your bum also has to be lower than the headset. That means the saddle needs to be right down and on a 29er likely damn near rubbing the tyre.
So that is the end position and its worth getting someone to hold the bike and support you whilst you get in that position to get to know it. You will not be able to use the bars..hence the need for someone to help.
Now it is a mattet of getting to that position. It is all done with hips going down and back whilst keeping your arms straight. You lift the front with your weight shift not by pulling up on the bars. At the same times drop your heels and push wkth your feet on level cranks. The feeling is one of pushing the bike forward and out from under you. If at any stage your chest is parallel and arms bent you will fail. To avoid this keep your arms straight and look up...not at the bars. In many sports your bkdy will naturally try to go where ylu are looking. So keep your head high.
Cover the rear brake to kill any over rotation

 

[B1rdie]

Well, I humbly suggest the use of trail mode and the third or fourth lower gear, look far ahead and feather the rear brake.

 

[Mikerb]

Well, I humbly suggest the use of trail mode and the third or fourth lower gear, look far ahead and feather the rear brake.

I was referring to a manual...it cuts out worrying about mode and gear selection which on an emtb can add another layer to research.

 

[Gary]

I am as far back as I can possibly get. Do you mean I'm not shifting my weight explosively enough?
but...
If so, timing should not be super-critical, just hang rearwards the whole time while pedaling. That barely gets the wheel off the ground though.

you're not getting what oI've said at all.
Yes. timing IS critical
your weightshift doesn't have to be explosive. but it HAS to be timed correctly.

You don't just "hang" off the back, pedal and hope for the best.
find someone who can wheelie well and is good at explaining stuff.
you're probably not going to "get" it from asking advice here.

 

[Mikerb]

It isn't fear of looping out, since I have plenty of experience with grabbing a handful of brake to avoid looping out when the climb gets too steep. I can also loop out intentionally by setting the bike a the bottom of such a grade and mashing the pedals. Can't do it on an easy grade or level ground though. I have been struggling with this for years. The wheel comes up for the 1/4 revolution between about the 1 o'clock and 4 o'clock positions (provided my speed is less than 3 mph) then immediately drops.


The more suspension, the less I can get the wheel up. This is unsurprising, since the job of the suspension is to keep the wheels in contact with the ground. My full-suspension pedal bike only comes up half as far as my hardtail. My ebike comes up further, cause motor.


I am as far back as I can possibly get. Do you mean I'm not shifting my weight explosively enough?

but...

If so, timing should not be super-critical, just hang rearwards the whole time while pedaling. That barely gets the wheel off the ground though.


Yes. Also non-responder to the kind of exercise that is supposed to build such muscle.
This has also been evident in every other athletic activity I have attempted.

It is genetic from all the information I have been able to gather. Marathoners don't become sprinters or visa-versa. Some of us do not even produce the essential enzyme for type 2b muscle.

I would stop worrying a bout fast/slow twitch! Everyone has both fast and slow twitch muscle......most successful athletes merely have a higher percentage of the right type of muscle for their sport. Any muscle in your body that gets tired is mainly fast twitch muscle type. Slow twitch muscle is the type that never gets tired.....your eye lids, your heart for example. The manual or wheelie is about weight transfer and technique + timing.....nothing to do with how much or how little or what percentage of fast or slow twitch muscle you have in any part of your body.

 

[andytiedye]

you're not getting what oI've said at all.
Yes. timing IS critical
your weightshift doesn't have to be explosive. but it HAS to be timed correctly.

You don't just "hang" off the back, pedal and hope for the best.
find someone who can wheelie well and is good at explaining stuff.
you're probably not going to "get" it from asking advice here.

I have received a lot of conflicting advice on this. For some, timing is critical, some not,
some push back and mash the pedals at the same time, some pedal "when the push turns into a pull" (Ryan Leech). I have tried both and everything in between. Hard to believe that I never got the timing right even once.

 

[Gary]

No. it's not hard to believe at all.

of course timing is important

 

[andytiedye]

No. it's not hard to believe at all.

What is not hard to believe? That in thousands of attempts, I would never get the timing right even one time?

 

[Gary]

Yes. it's not hard to believe.
You don't even want to believe there's any importance with timing when simply talking about it on a forum.

Like I said. find someone in real life to help you.
you don't seem to like the correct answers here.

Thousands of mistimed un-coordinated attempts will simply instill BAD habits and poor technique. A GOOD skills coach should be able to undo all your DIY mistakes.

 

[khorn]

Yes. it's not hard to believe.
You don't even want to believe there's any importance whith timing when simply talking about it on a forum.

Like I said. find someone in real life to help you.
you don't seem to like the correct answers here.

Thousands of mistimed un-coordinated attempts will simply instill BAD habits and poor technique. A GOOD skills coach should be able to undo all your DIY mistakes.

I support Gary 100%, timing is crucial in order to raise your front wheel in a controlled way. There are about 1 gazillion “how to do a wheelie” videos on YouTube and every single serious guide mention timing as crucial.


Karsten

 

[B1rdie]

We need videos on how to wheelie an Ebike ? come on folks, show time!

 

[Gary]

The world really doesn't need yet another wheelie tutorial video.

Google or search YouTube

 

[B1rdie]

Who needs wheelies at all? I once read that wheeling is not as crucial a skill as manualing, anyway... my skills on both are barely functional, just enough to keep me going through step-ups and water streams. There is a trail with a long steep loose gravel nearby, witch you can try to descend holding the brakes in a scary fashion or just let go and reach the bottom at 60km/h, where a stream from a pig corral crosses, it is a nice place to learn front wheel lifting.

 

[andytiedye]

Yes. it's not hard to believe.
You don't even want to believe there's any importance with timing when simply talking about it on a forum.

Like I said. find someone in real life to help you.
you don't seem to like the correct answers here.

Thousands of mistimed un-coordinated attempts will simply instill BAD habits and poor technique. A GOOD skills coach should be able to undo all your DIY mistakes.

I was relating the range of conflicting advice I have received. I never expressed any preference one way or the other. I would prefer that it be dependent on timing rather than fast-twitch power, so I have some possibility of mastering it, but I realize that what I would prefer is irrelevant.

Coaches are few and far between, and the one I got never mentioned timing.

 

[andytiedye]

On the pedal bike, I simply don't produce enough torque to get the front wheel up more than a foot on level ground, even when my timing is spot on. When it isn't, the front wheel barely leaves the ground at all. In all cases, the wheel is on the ground again by the bottom of the first pedal stroke.

My problem is most likely timing on the emtb, since the assist should be able to make up for my lack of torque. That assist on my bike is provided through a clutch, which introduces a delay if I coast up to the point where I want to start the wheelie. Compensating for the clutch delay has proven very difficult. Only way around that is to pedal just enough to keep the clutch engaged instead of coasting. But then I get going too fast, and can't get any lift from pedaling.

Assisted or not, I get no front wheel lift from pedaling at speeds much over 3 MPH.