Does your motor meet the EN 15194:2017 standard

[Moderator]

Whilst it's tempting to lock the thread to stop the miss communication, I'm going to move it to derestricting instead, then you can discuss it in it's entirety.

In the meantime, can we all make a tiny effort to be civil and take a moment to try and understand other people's opinions and points of view, just so you can actually have a conversation rather than playing obscenity tennis.

 

[mtbbiker]

I have a Bosch Gen 5, updated with the latest upgrades. My turbo is set max everything and I only use this setting downhill. Just for kicks I used it on the climbs. I was climbing over 15mph. For me, this is an issue. I assume an Avinox can easily cruise at 20mph. This in my mind is what’s going to cause issues with other trail users.

For the record, I tried the latest Crestline with the newest Avinox and I noticed the power difference right away. The owner agreed, climbing speed is way too fast. I think most people could care less about downhill speed, but cruising at 20mph climbing is going to raise some eyebrows.

 

[Brawwp]

I have a Bosch Gen 5, updated with the latest upgrades. My turbo is set max everything and I only use this setting downhill. Just for kicks I used it on the climbs. I was climbing over 15mph. For me, this is an issue. I assume an Avinox can easily cruise at 20mph. This in my mind is what’s going to cause issues with other trail users.

For the record, I tried the latest Crestline with the newest Avinox and I noticed the power difference right away. The owner agreed, climbing speed is way too fast. I think most people could care less about downhill speed, but cruising at 20mph climbing is going to raise some eyebrows.

When you were going 15mph uphill you feel you could stop pretty quickly right if you saw someone? Idk your skill level but I’d like to imagine you’re capable of going faster downhill than uphill right? So let’s say you hit 20mph downhill that same ride. Did that not look worse to a hiker? How many times have you been injured out of control going uphill? I don’t think I ever have. Maybe foot dab here and there. Downhill though I’ve eaten it plenty times.

Even on my blazing fast avinox I am way faster with the motor not in use going downhill and much more dangerous to myself and others. I hope we don’t propose dh speed limits next

 

[mtbbiker]

When you were going 15mph uphill you feel you could stop pretty quickly right if you saw someone? Idk your skill level but I’d like to imagine you’re capable of going faster downhill than uphill right? So let’s say you hit 20mph downhill that same ride. Did that not look worse to a hiker? How many times have you been injured out of control going uphill? I don’t think I ever have. Maybe foot dab here and there. Downhill though I’ve eaten it plenty times.

Even on my blazing fast avinox I am way faster with the motor not in use going downhill and much more dangerous to myself and others. I hope we don’t propose dh speed limits

When you were going 15mph uphill you feel you could stop pretty quickly right if you saw someone? Idk your skill level but I’d like to imagine you’re capable of going faster downhill than uphill right? So let’s say you hit 20mph downhill that same ride. Did that not look worse to a hiker? How many times have you been injured out of control going uphill? I don’t think I ever have. Maybe foot dab here and there. Downhill though I’ve eaten it plenty times.

Even on my blazing fast avinox I am way faster with the motor not in use going downhill and much more dangerous to myself and others. I hope we don’t propose dh speed limits next

Yes, 15mph and plus is harder to come to a stop than at 10mph or slower, especially if you get surprised. I don’t believe we need to be going 15mph or faster climbing. That was just a test for me. Most of my climbing is stock setting EMTB+ or tour+, where it’s tough to hit 15mph plus.

I never said anything negative about DH speed. Motor power doesn’t make much of a difference when pointed downhill. It’s the Avinox climbing speed that’s going to get EMTB riders in trouble.

 

[Astro66]

It’s the Avinox climbing speed that’s going to get EMTB riders in trouble.

I think you'll find most EMTB hospital visits are caused by downhill accidents. Not climbing accidents.

But one fact you are missing when climbing. 90% of the falls I had when climbing, have been because the bike stalled trying to get over a technical obstacle, and due to the angle of the bike, I couldn't reach the ground with my feet, and the bike topples over.

I fall much less when climbing on my Amflow, because the extra peak power means I stall less often. Infact I have pretty much eliminated falls when climbing, on the Amflow. That said. In the National Parks my speed is limited to 15mph.

If people would actually try technical climbing with the Avinox Motor. It's been my experience you get into trouble much less.

 

[mtbbiker]

I think you'll find most EMTB hospital visits are caused by downhill accidents. Not climbing accidents.

But one fact you are missing when climbing. 90% of the falls I had when climbing, have been because the bike stalled trying to get over a technical obstacle, and due to the angle of the bike, I couldn't reach the ground with my feet, and the bike topples over.

I fall much less when climbing on my Amflow, because the extra peak power means I stall less often. Infact I have pretty much eliminated falls when climbing, on the Amflow. That said. In the National Parks my speed is limited to 15mph.

If people would actually try technical climbing with the Avinox Motor. It's been my experience you get into trouble much less.

You are honestly saying there’s no difference between climbing at 10mph vs 20mph on a multi use trail?

 

[Astro66]

You are honestly saying there’s no difference between climbing at 10mph vs 20mph on a multi use trail?

Yes there is a difference. But it's the same difference between descending at 10mph Vs 20mph, only descending has gravity making it harder to stop, whilst when ascending, gravity helps you stop.

200mm of travel allowing you to descend quicker than 150mm of travel, is no different to 1000 peak watts allowing you to ascend quicker than 750 peak watts.

 

[Brawwp]

You are honestly saying there’s no difference between climbing at 10mph vs 20mph on a multi use trail?

I just don’t get why it matters. You’re faster and less safe going downhill on same multi use trail. Even using trail mode or boost on my local trails climbing, I am wayyyyyy faster going downhill on the same trails. So why does it matter?

Here watch this video of the M2s. He climbs in boost at 11 min mark. Then watch all the downhill. You tell me what is safer/worse optics to a hiker….

 

[mtbbiker]

I just don’t get why it matters. You’re faster and less safe going downhill on same multi use trail. Even using trail mode or boost on my local trails climbing, I am wayyyyyy faster going downhill on the same trails. So why does it matter?

Here watch this video of the M2s. He climbs in boost at 11 min mark. Then watch all the downhill. You tell me what is safer/worse optics to a hiker….

11min mark, his words crazy power, hard to keep the front wheel down, spinning the rear tire on the climb. Almost sounds like he’s riding a dirt bike.

I think you are starting to understand what I’m trying to get across. Up hill speed has been about 10mph or less. For the most part, very easy to stop quickly in an emergency. Now double that speed climbing and a rider coming down at 20mph plus, that’s going to be one hard crash. That’s all I’m trying to say, reaction time between 10mph and 20mph is cut in 1/2. That’s huge.

I don’t know why you guys keep bringing in downhill speed, as more power for the most part is not going to make you much faster. I love the downhills!

 

[Astro66]

I don’t know why you guys keep bringing in downhill speed

Because downhill speed is far more dangerous than uphill speed, due to gravity further increasing stopping times. So conversely I ask, why do you keep bringing up, uphill speed ? If safety is the issue . Slowing people going downhill would be the safer option. So restriction of suspension travel and gear ratios to limit downhill speed, would be a better solution to safety, not peak motor power.

Personally, I don't have an issue. But those raising an issue with uphill speed, cannot just ignore the advances that have increased downhill speed. The sport of EMTB is just as much about uphill fun, as it is downhill fun.

reaction time between 10mph and 20mph is cut in 1/2.

Just for clarity. Stopping distance is velocity squared. So it will take you 4 times as far to stop.

Almost sounds like he’s riding a dirt bike.

The exact same could be said about the aerial stunts that can be performed, due to the advances in MTB suspension. Jumps that were only possible on trail bikes are now possible on MTBs and EMTBs. It doesn't make them the same thing. We don't see people calling into question the inverted fork, because it's primarily used on motorbikes.

 

[Brawwp]

11min mark, his words crazy power, hard to keep the front wheel down, spinning the rear tire on the climb. Almost sounds like he’s riding a dirt bike.

I think you are starting to understand what I’m trying to get across. Up hill speed has been about 10mph or less. For the most part, very easy to stop quickly in an emergency. Now double that speed climbing and a rider coming down at 20mph plus, that’s going to be one hard crash. That’s all I’m trying to say, reaction time between 10mph and 20mph is cut in 1/2. That’s huge.

I don’t know why you guys keep bringing in downhill speed, as more power for the most part is not going to make you much faster. I love the downhills!

How fast do you reckon he was going there. Mind you he’s a professional mtber. Maybe 6mph in boost mode? His dh speed at some points maybe 20-25mph? I mention dh speed because you’re worried about speed on a trail and in your words how it will “raise eyebrows.” You going down steep dh over 20mph is much worse and that requires zero motor. You’ve been in situations going dh where you couldn’t stop. Even in boost going uphill you can stop in like 3 feet lol. So if that’s not raising eyebrows to you then why is the uphill doing it?

I wanted you to see how you’re worrying about nothing. You aren’t gonna see average joe going up any meaningful uphill at 20mph. The limiting factors are skill, and just not being possible pending the trail type. Now on a road yes, I do it all the time and I believe it is much safer to be able to get up to speed especially on roads with cars. So it’s nice to have it, but you aren’t going to be using it much.

 

[Fangs2k]

I think we can talk about whether we think having a faster e-bike via de-restricting (note, not more powerful) annoys trail users more all day long, but my own experience is that some other trail users just seem annoyed at bikes on ‘their’ trail full stop.

Getting back into the meat of the OP, our (that includes you my EMTB loving buddies!) problems will really begin once the perception is out there that what we’re doing is a problem and needs to be addressed. It’s the way it always goes, certainly here in the UK. When I say regulators are ‘dumb’, it’s more the ‘solutions’ they put in place, albeit often directed by elected politicians.

The e-bike motor market is still very much in the disruption phase, nothing much is going to change quickly, but at some point the industry as a whole (incl Avinox) is going to have to sit down and discuss and agree the whole power, speed and tampering issue otherwise I fear other less informed people/groups will do it for them.

Meantime, let’s enjoy what we have.

 

[Valaminium]

I just don’t get why it matters. You’re faster and less safe going downhill on same multi use trail. Even using trail mode or boost on my local trails climbing, I am wayyyyyy faster going downhill on the same trails. So why does it matter?

Here watch this video of the M2s. He climbs in boost at 11 min mark. Then watch all the downhill. You tell me what is safer/worse optics to a hiker….

Are you claiming his descents in this video are shared trail?

 

[Valaminium]

How fast do you reckon he was going there. Mind you he’s a professional mtber. Maybe 6mph in boost mode? His dh speed at some points maybe 20-25mph? I mention dh speed because you’re worried about speed on a trail and in your words how it will “raise eyebrows.” You going down steep dh over 20mph is much worse and that requires zero motor. You’ve been in situations going dh where you couldn’t stop. Even in boost going uphill you can stop in like 3 feet lol. So if that’s not raising eyebrows to you then why is the uphill doing it?

I wanted you to see how you’re worrying about nothing. You aren’t gonna see average joe going up any meaningful uphill at 20mph. The limiting factors are skill, and just not being possible pending the trail type. Now on a road yes, I do it all the time and I believe it is much safer to be able to get up to speed especially on roads with cars. So it’s nice to have it, but you aren’t going to be using it much.

We have loads of shared path bridleways here in the UK, a sparrow boned 8yr old could ride his dads Amflow at NZ VPN Hack28 up all of them (and probably better than his dad on the technical sections) Picture that for optics…. ITS A MOTORBIKE!

The original debate was about what the derestriction achieves, not mtb sport in general and where many UK locations have trails designated for downhill in public locations (borderline illegal digging in some private places) we all use them and most hikers are savvy to see deep rutted berms as a giveaway and not to walk them! So they are safe for Enduro downhill speeds.

 

[Valaminium]

11min mark, his words crazy power, hard to keep the front wheel down, spinning the rear tire on the climb. Almost sounds like he’s riding a dirt bike.

I think you are starting to understand what I’m trying to get across. Up hill speed has been about 10mph or less. For the most part, very easy to stop quickly in an emergency. Now double that speed climbing and a rider coming down at 20mph plus, that’s going to be one hard crash. That’s all I’m trying to say, reaction time between 10mph and 20mph is cut in 1/2. That’s huge.

I don’t know why you guys keep bringing in downhill speed, as more power for the most part is not going to make you much faster. I love the downhills!

‘I don’t know why you guys keep bringing in downhill speed, as more power for the most part is not going to make you much faster. I love the downhills!’

Clutching at straws for any equivalent argument that can used when it’s obvious the initial point raised is litigating. What follows is typically regulation so any hopes of a speed increase from 15.5mph to 20 here, all totally rejected…

 

[skizzian]

am I correct in thinking people are saying that meeting an ebike at 20mph going up a trail when you're going down it at 20mph is not an issue?
I scared the bejezus out of an analogue gravel rider going up a trail Tuesday and it wasn't even remotely steep.

 

[Valaminium]

‘I don’t know why you guys keep bringing in downhill speed, as more power for the most part is not going to make you much faster. I love the downhills!’

Clutching at straws for any equivalent argument that can used when it’s obvious the initial point raised is litigating. What follows is typically regulation so any hopes of a speed increase from 15.5mph to 20 here, all totally rejected…

15.5 is too slow without a filter to cut speed at so abruptly while using motor on trail down/up the wall everyone speaks of abruptly as the restriction allows currently.
A filter slew to 0% @20mph starting at 15.5 would be more sensible and Bosch should demonstrate this and set a standard, one of the points made by any reviewer is the Avinox needs very little input to achieve near max assist. So it can’t be denied how easy 28 is to achieve…

 

[Valaminium]

am I correct in thinking people are saying that meeting an ebike at 20mph going up a trail when you're going down it at 20mph is not an issue?
I scared the bejezus out of an analogue gravel rider going up a trail Tuesday and it wasn't even remotely steep.

Yes the stealth aspect is another story. Mosquitoes are noisier!

 

[Astro66]

am I correct in thinking people are saying that meeting an ebike at 20mph going up a trail when you're going down it at 20mph is not an issue?

No. It would be an issue. But who out there is climbing a technical ascent at over 30kph? I'm lucky if I'm doing 10kph in a technical ascent.

Technical climbing requires, a slow methodical planned ascent, with bursts of power to clear taller obstacles. Sure sometimes I use a small burst of speed to get airborne and get over a particularly nasty obstacle. But you are never going fast.

These people talking about technical ascents at 32kph on any motor system, clearly don't do much technical climbing.

The most dangerous place to speed in the National Park, is not the Technical Ups and Downs. It's the flatter overgrown single tracks, where the corners are blind. This is where I have had the most close calls. And that is why I don't ride my EMTB de-restricted in the National Park.

 

[Astro66]

So to provide a practical example of how silly this notion that EMTBs limited to 25kph are going to create Land Usage issues.

The UCI just failed to get higher gear ratios banned. Why did they want them banned? Because cyclists can go faster with them. Yet not a single Social Media mermer about how these devices, that actually increase bike speeds, will create safety issues. Nothing .... Zero ...... Nada .....

It just goes to show what is wrong with the world. Things that actually make an EMTB faster, go completely unregulated. But things where there is a regulation to limit speed, Social Media has contrived there is an issue. And we wonder why nothing to actually make cycling safer, ever gets done ??? <shakes head>

'Likely to cause harm to SRAM that is serious and difficult to repair': UCI loses appeal over maximum gear ratios

Belgian Market Court sides with Belgian Competition Authority

www.cyclingweekly.com

 

[JP-NZ]

Now that this thread has moved, Astro I presume your new bike will be VPN'd the same as your amflow? Or does that affect the standard?

I had never heard of EN-15194 / AS 15194 till this thread. Not sure we have it in NZ??

 

[Astro66]

I run all my EMTBs, including the Shimano and my Marin, this way. I set my region to the US.

In the National Parks and Bike Parks, I run US Class 1, so I am EN-15194 compliant.

When commuting on roads, I use US Class 3 so I am not EN-15194 compliant.

I rarely ride on the road with my EMTBs, and take them to the bike parks in my car. So they are left in US Class 1.

As we have an extremely poor bicycle network in Sydney. I reserve the right to have my bicycles travel safely at traffic speeds on the road, and not have idiots overtaking me dangerously. And if I no longer have the power in my legs, or the capacity in my heart, to do it. I have and will employ other ways.

If anyone has a problem with this. My butt is always here to be kissed ........

 

[JP-NZ]

How easy is it to change class, just an option on the display?

 

[richy]

How easy is it to change class, just an option on the display?

Yes pretty much. You swipe up for settings, scroll to 'speed limit', and the next menu is 16 mph, 20 mph, and 28 mph class 3.

Can change them while riding

 

[Astro66]

How easy is it to change class, just an option on the display?

Obviously this is only an option if you live in America, due to the multiple American compliances. And America doesn't require EN15914 compliance, like they do in my state. VPN hacking your activation and registration also allows this option.

Apparently this US hack doesn't work everywhere. No idea why. Just like the Hong Kong hack doesn't work everywhere. As I have stated. It's not as simple as installing a VPN on your phone. This will not change the region of the motor. There is a required procedure.

Out of curiosity, I have experimented with countries. Many invalidate your registration and the motor doesn't provide any assist at all. And the inability to re-register would leave the motor useless. So you need to be careful.

This is unlike the Shimano hack, which just works. You just need the 3rd party software and a license, and don't need a VPN. Same with Bafang, but no license required. That is why it is the easiest, IMO.

When I sold my 2 shimano bikes. I left the speed limit at 25kph. But informed the owners they could get the 3rd Party App on their phones and increase the speed limit, because the license was tied to the motor serial number, so stayed with the bike.

I also offered to remove the hack from the motor, as the motors still had warranty. Neither asked me to remove it. Never found out if either got the App on their phones and increased the limit.

 

[Petrex]

Hmmm !

 

[Petrex]

@Fangs2k
Quote
"It was the ‘anti Alex Bike Tester brigade’ I’m referring to, the ‘show me your evidence’ incl a popcorn emoji. It’s only going one way, every post that doesn’t bathe Avinox in a wholesome and beautiful light is jumped upon. "

Quote
"I see the EMTB self appointed attack dogs are out in force today…

There’s no need for this needless antagonism, if what you’re about to say doesn’t contribute positively to the forum then perhaps don’t say it?"

Sorry ! When I saw these posts and others I couldn't understand what I had said that was so provocative?
I was simply asking for further info
I didn't know that @notaninfluencer
Is actually The Alex Bike Tester.
I only just found that out reading some post in a different thread.

Also I have been using the popcorn emoji since about 2003 in a flashlight forum to signify that I was patiently waiting for further developments or information and will be watching a movie with some popcorn while I wait.

As An-Old-Git-Not-A-Bike-Tester-or-Infuencer I also hadn't come across Sealioning
(Apparently: Sealioning is a disingenuous trolling tactic where someone pesters another person with relentless, pseudo-polite requests for evidence or clarification. The goal is not to have a genuine debate, but to exhaust the target).

 

[Suns_PSD]

Choose your ride wisely.

 

[Onetime]

Choose your ride wisely.

View attachment 185804

That’s a joke. No one will be testing the bikes to see how much power they make or how fast they can go. I just saw the rangers while riding my bike in So Cal this Sunday. Waived hello and kept riding. That is a non issue here. How about you stop pushing the paranoia propaganda and worry about yourself in AZ and we can worry about ourselves in CA. There isn’t an issue here.

 

[Suns_PSD]

A big cost of your emtb is the motor and it can make a huge difference in your riding. Avinox is lighter and traction control imo is better. It also has smooth shift, a new feature that lowers power when you shift, and tons of other features that help save the drivechain. Has navigation now (although heard it’s not great yet). Of course I’d ride one yourself and come to your own conclusions on if it’s worth it which may be a no. After owning Bosch, brose, avinox I think it’s totally worth it if you got the $$. Not worth going into debt over though!

That’s a joke. No one will be testing the bikes to see how much power they make or how fast they can go. I just saw the rangers while riding my bike in So Cal this Sunday. Waived hello and kept riding. That is a non issue here. How about you stop pushing the paranoia propaganda and worry about yourself in AZ and we can worry about ourselves in CA. There isn’t an issue here.

You are correct that there is no enforcement at this time. It's a shame though that if there isn't enforcement you don't think the rules exist.