Singletrackmind
Well-known member
Trying to get an understanding of the difference in performance between the new Avinox motor with 130nm/1300w versus a Bosch Gen 5 motor with the rumored 120nm/1000w.
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How does an emtb with 120nm/1000w perform against an emtb with 130nm/1300w?
- Thread starter Singletrackmind
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If you race up the hill on double track, you beat your friends with lesser/slower motors. That's all.
You will be climbing at cuttoff speed even on medium-to-hard slopes.
It is virtually the same effect as the new "1500HP" Bugatti vs. the "old and obsolete" 1200HP Bugatti. Doesn't matter in RL, even if thousands of pages will be written on how it really matters and it is game breaking and all that. BS. That's just marketing.
In windy technical trails, the previous motor was already too fast to use "full power" on.
DJI has delivered an excellently packaged system. Their traction control / torque sensing is a generation beyond the competition. Their batteries are smaller/lighter.
If they were focusing on delivering a 85Nm motor/battery package that out-ranges the competition at less weight, that would be a game changer. "Overclocking" their already most powerful motor to just drink power at 1500W instead of 1200W, is just attention grabbing, and it has a good chance of harming the industry: not only because everyone will halt buying a eMTB waiting for the update that they are now addicted to receive every couple short years, but also because we are now approaching power outputs that are comparable to entry level eMotos (Surrons and the like), which facing a huge pushback and demand for a crack-down in a global scale. They want to ban them from the streets unless treated as motorcycles, with licensing and plates and insurance etc.
This has the potential to harm pedelec (class 1) eBicycle users that will now could be called top pay fees and licenses etc, making one of the best alternative modes of transportation less appealing, but also harm us as eMTB users, as there is a legit basis on banning them from trails - as it was the case less than a decade ago. w
DJI was winning already with the massively successful Avinox gen 1. If they focused on delivering refinement and lower weight, they would be doign everyone a solid and pushing competition to actually innovate. Now they just force the competition to make unrestricted monsters to stay afloat, as we see with Specialized Levo Gen 4, the Aventon Current etc: They already offer throttled modes, already offer 28mph over the already higher than EU "20mph" class 1 limitation the competition had.
I do not see that as innovations in the eMTB world, just attention grabbing stunts that have a serious potential to harm access for eMTBs and eBikes alike.
Cannot wait for the selfish proponents of this "moar-powa-baby" silly race, to claim ignorance if the loss of access happens.
You will be climbing at cuttoff speed even on medium-to-hard slopes.
It is virtually the same effect as the new "1500HP" Bugatti vs. the "old and obsolete" 1200HP Bugatti. Doesn't matter in RL, even if thousands of pages will be written on how it really matters and it is game breaking and all that. BS. That's just marketing.
In windy technical trails, the previous motor was already too fast to use "full power" on.
DJI has delivered an excellently packaged system. Their traction control / torque sensing is a generation beyond the competition. Their batteries are smaller/lighter.
If they were focusing on delivering a 85Nm motor/battery package that out-ranges the competition at less weight, that would be a game changer. "Overclocking" their already most powerful motor to just drink power at 1500W instead of 1200W, is just attention grabbing, and it has a good chance of harming the industry: not only because everyone will halt buying a eMTB waiting for the update that they are now addicted to receive every couple short years, but also because we are now approaching power outputs that are comparable to entry level eMotos (Surrons and the like), which facing a huge pushback and demand for a crack-down in a global scale. They want to ban them from the streets unless treated as motorcycles, with licensing and plates and insurance etc.
This has the potential to harm pedelec (class 1) eBicycle users that will now could be called top pay fees and licenses etc, making one of the best alternative modes of transportation less appealing, but also harm us as eMTB users, as there is a legit basis on banning them from trails - as it was the case less than a decade ago. w
DJI was winning already with the massively successful Avinox gen 1. If they focused on delivering refinement and lower weight, they would be doign everyone a solid and pushing competition to actually innovate. Now they just force the competition to make unrestricted monsters to stay afloat, as we see with Specialized Levo Gen 4, the Aventon Current etc: They already offer throttled modes, already offer 28mph over the already higher than EU "20mph" class 1 limitation the competition had.
I do not see that as innovations in the eMTB world, just attention grabbing stunts that have a serious potential to harm access for eMTBs and eBikes alike.
Cannot wait for the selfish proponents of this "moar-powa-baby" silly race, to claim ignorance if the loss of access happens.
Right, here's what I can piece together for you, @Singletrackmind. The M2S is a properly documented beast: 130Nm continuous / 150Nm peak torque, 1,300W continuous / 1,500W peak, at 2.6kg. Independent testing has it hitting 1,462W measured at 112rpm with 250W rider input. It also runs an 800% max assist ratio, which is utterly silly on paper and genuinely useful on long fire road grinds where you just want to spin and let the motor do the heavy lifting. Knowing you're 100kg on a Wild, that assist ratio difference is actually meaningful for you.
Now, the Bosch side. Someone in the industry mentioned 120Nm (or 130) and 1000W, but it wasn't confirmed.
There's a verified update coming May 4th, but so far the only confirmed Bosch Gen 5 specs remain 750W and 100Nm from last year's OTA.
One source heard they're upping torque to 120Nm but keeping power at 750W. So your "120Nm/1000W" figure is still rumour territory, and the two numbers may not even arrive together.
@DIomidis, you raise a fair few points, and I'm not going to pretend they're all wrong. But I think some of them deserve a bit more nuance than "it's all marketing."
The Bugatti analogy is neat but slightly misleading. On a dual carriageway, sure, 1200HP and 1500HP feel identical because you're limited by speed and grip. But on an eMTB, the power ceiling isn't really the headline story with the M2S. The measured 800% max assist ratio and the way it delivers torque at low RPM matters more than the peak wattage number. For a 100kg rider grinding up a steep, loose technical climb at 30rpm, the difference between 1,000W and 1,300W continuous is genuinely felt, because you're nowhere near the 25kph cutoff. You're at 8kph, struggling for traction, and the motor's torque curve at that cadence is the whole game.
That said, your broader point about the industry arms race is legitimate. The M2S puts out 1,462W measured on the dyno at 112rpm. That is eMotocross territory in terms of raw output, even if the 25kph pedelec limit keeps average trail speeds pedestrian. And you're right that regulators don't always distinguish between "technically limited to 25kph" and "puts out 1.5kW." The optics matter, especially in places like SoCal where trail access is already politically fragile.
