Power Struggle: Who Controls the Future of E‑MTB?

[Powerslider]

NJ just released the strictest e-bike rules... stemming from a kid's death involving a motor-vehicle. Granted he was on an e-moped/moto (illegal throttle assist bicycles).

New Jersey Passes Most Restrictive E-Bike Law in the U.S. | PeopleForBikes

On January 19, New Jersey Governor Phil Murphy signed the most restrictive e-bike law in the country. The new law restricts the definition of “low-speed electric bicycle” to only Class 1 devices, and treats Class 2 and 3 ebikes as “motorized bicycles.” All e-bikes now require both registration...

www.peopleforbikes.org

Yup. I lived most of my life in NJ and voted against their policies (not related to cycling) with my feet by leaving a year ago. I'm much more aligned with Arizona's policies which absolutely impacted my decision as to where I was moving to.
Just last night I was at a dinner with friends where they both said they liked California but chose to move to Arizona because the policies are so much more favorable.

 

[Mikerb]

Not sure I fully accept the auto industry "example". For a number of years the wise choice ( at least in Europe/ Uk) for quality cars has been either German or Japanese manufacturers......Japanese for reliability at the cost often of blandness and German for best design performance and quality. My choice has always been and still is BMW.
The situation is different I think with emtbs. I still do not see DJI as a significant disrupter since whilst they have pushed the power limits they have not produced anything that other motor suppliers cannot match if they think it necessary and sustainable both from a regulatory perspective and with regards to longer term reliability etc.

 

[Downhillr]

I would be surprised if "established brands" have not learned from past automotive industry and other screwups. Time will tell.

Surprise!…
Hyundai/Kia, BYD have overtaken EV market while established brands have once again missed the market.

 

[Downhillr]

Not sure I fully accept the auto industry "example". For a number of years the wise choice ( at least in Europe/ Uk) for quality cars has been either German or Japanese manufacturers......Japanese for reliability at the cost often of blandness and German for best design performance and quality. My choice has always been and still is BMW.
The situation is different I think with emtbs. I still do not see DJI as a significant disrupter since whilst they have pushed the power limits they have not produced anything that other motor suppliers cannot match if they think it necessary and sustainable both from a regulatory perspective and with regards to longer term reliability etc.

Heard of “established” GoPro? Got their ass kicked in drone market & now DJI doing same in action cameras.

 

[Downhillr]

Not sure I fully accept the auto industry "example". For a number of years the wise choice ( at least in Europe/ Uk) for quality cars has been either German or Japanese manufacturers......Japanese for reliability at the cost often of blandness and German for best design performance and quality. My choice has always been and still is BMW.
The situation is different I think with emtbs. I still do not see DJI as a significant disrupter since whilst they have pushed the power limits they have not produced anything that other motor suppliers cannot match if they think it necessary and sustainable both from a regulatory perspective and with regards to longer term reliability etc.

How about Blackberry & Nokia… along came iPhone… need more examples?

 

[Downhillr]

Not sure I fully accept the auto industry "example". For a number of years the wise choice ( at least in Europe/ Uk) for quality cars has been either German or Japanese manufacturers......Japanese for reliability at the cost often of blandness and German for best design performance and quality. My choice has always been and still is BMW.
The situation is different I think with emtbs. I still do not see DJI as a significant disrupter since whilst they have pushed the power limits they have not produced anything that other motor suppliers cannot match if they think it necessary and sustainable both from a regulatory perspective and with regards to longer term reliability etc.

IBM wasn’t threatened by Woz & Jobs in their garage in Cupertino CA… how’d that work out?

 

[Fangs2k]

Surprise!…
Hyundai/Kia, BYD have overtaken EV market while established brands have once again missed the market.

Depends where you are in the world, but here in UK/Europe it’s the Volkswagen Group that top the EV sales charts, closely followed by BMW and BYD with Tesla still in the mix as well.

We have a VW and Kia EV in the household, both great cars, and arguably riding on the back of Tesla who were the original ‘disruptor’ in the space and showed the possibilities.

 

[Fangs2k]

How about Blackberry & Nokia… along came iPhone… need more examples?

Bizarrely, my work phone is an iPhone and runs a lot of enterprise Blackberry Apps on it.

I’ve got a mate who still works at Nokia, they’re far from dead, just focussed on different things.

Things change, companies come and go, change focus and yes sometimes die. ‘‘Twas ever thus”.

 

[irie]

Surprise!…
Hyundai/Kia, BYD have overtaken EV market while established brands have once again missed the market.

Nice strawman!

That is not failure to develop existing technology, it is instead tardiness in adopting new technologies.

 

[Citylad77]

Not sure I fully accept the auto industry "example". For a number of years the wise choice ( at least in Europe/ Uk) for quality cars has been either German or Japanese manufacturers......Japanese for reliability at the cost often of blandness and German for best design performance and quality. My choice has always been and still is BMW.
The situation is different I think with emtbs. I still do not see DJI as a significant disrupter since whilst they have pushed the power limits they have not produced anything that other motor suppliers cannot match if they think it necessary and sustainable both from a regulatory perspective and with regards to longer term reliability etc.

I disagree that DJI Anflow have not been a disruption for the EMTB market, they have completely bounced it on its head, many bike shops have openly commented that it’s saved them from going under. They remind me of McLarens entry to the sports car market, with its high power great driving CF Tub cars. Real wake up call for the other performance car makers.

 

[Polar]

Avinox changed the game with power and some finds it unfair and even illegal.
I remember when suddenly 4 wheel drive cars was introduced to motocross with better grips and mostly winning all the rounds.
Took quite some time until it was accepted.
Ebikes now got the power but the grip is what's matters most and it's controlled by the software which is getting better all the time.

 

[ozzybmx]

many bike shops have openly commented that it’s saved them from going under.

I've seen quite a few vids on YT where UK shops have said that Amflow saved the shop. Also a local shop owner here said that its been the best thing for his business.

Wonder what the retail cost to a shop is ? The prices for the PL and PL Pro are locked in. Any idea of how much margin they had on the locally sold bikes ?

 

[irie]

Avinox changed the game with power and some finds it unfair and even illegal.
I remember when suddenly 4 wheel drive cars was introduced to motocross with better grips and mostly winning all the rounds.
Took quite some time until it was accepted.
Ebikes now got the power but the grip is what's matters most and it's controlled by the software which is getting better all the time.

Autocross

ftfy

 

[Citylad77]

Avinox changed the game with power and some finds it unfair and even illegal.
I remember when suddenly 4 wheel drive cars was introduced to motocross with better grips and mostly winning all the rounds.
Took quite some time until it was accepted.
Ebikes now got the power but the grip is what's matters most and it's controlled by the software which is getting better all the time.

I agree the way they went about the power was borderline to put it politely. But you don’t have to use it all, if anything I find it over powered. There is nothing game changing about its frame or set up. The most impressive point for me is its just how can fine tune the settings, and the smooth shift it’s like a completely different gear set.

 

[Citylad77]

I've seen quite a few vids on YT where UK shops have said that Amflow saved the shop. Also a local shop owner here said that its been the best thing for his business.

Wonder what the retail cost to a shop is ? The prices for the PL and PL Pro are locked in. Any idea of how much margin they had on the locally sold bikes ?

When I collected my bike from the store they had 3 others that wanted it same day also. The store sells many other bikes from other manufacturers, some have told him not to sell AMflow if they want to still be supplied with there bikes. His response was no problem and sent them there unsold stock back. I do know that margin they work on, it’s not quite as much as what I expected.

 

[ozzybmx]

When I collected my bike from the store they had 3 others that wanted it same day also. The store sells many other bikes from other manufacturers, some have told him not to sell AMflow if they want to still be supplied with there bikes. His response was no problem and sent them there unsold stock back. I do know that margin they work on, it’s not quite as much as what I expected.

I bought mine from a Specialized shop here in SA. They have only sold Spech and Scott forever, I was suprised to see they had taken on Amflow, they advertised that they had 2 x Large and 1 x Med in stock, I went down the next day and tried both, between sizes, hoping to fit the Med.
The Med was good, fitted a 50mm riser bar and the bike feels great, swapped the wheels out from the start and running Kryptotals, also swapped the 150mm dropper for a Bikeyoke 180, the biggest difference was going to a Fox 38, I was hoping not to like it but it transformed the bike, so much more stiffness.

 

[Citylad77]

I bought mine from a Specialized shop here in SA. They have only sold Spech and Scott forever, I was suprised to see they had taken on Amflow, they advertised that they had 2 x Large and 1 x Med in stock, I went down the next day and tried both, between sizes, hoping to fit the Med.
The Med was good, fitted a 50mm riser bar and the bike feels great, swapped the wheels out from the start and running Kryptotals, also swapped the 150mm dropper for a Bikeyoke 180, the biggest difference was going to a Fox 38, I was hoping not to like it but it transformed the bike, so much more stiffness.

From what I am told the Fox 38 transforms to bike, I have left mine as stock though I am not to keen on more stiffness. I don’t mind a tiny amount of flex when on the limit of my Skill sets, also imv being not to rigid allows for a bit more grip imo. But it’s all down to personal preferences no right or wrong.

 

[ozzybmx]

From what I am told the Fox 38 transforms to bike, I have left mine as stock though I am not to keen on more stiffness.

The 38 with 10mm more travel was a game changer, its only a Performance elite with a Vorsprung Luftkappe but it feels awesome. The 36 chattered and blew through the travel quick. Try a stiffer fork, they are really nice.

 

[Fangs2k]

I think maybe it’s the industry/field I work in, but I keep reading stuff like ‘game changer’, ‘blows away’ and ‘smashes the competition’ with regard to Avinox/Amflow and it just feels a bit over the top to me.

I’ve always said that the Avinox has moved the game on, but it’s still the same game with the same basic bike design and same components outside of the motor and software. I mean, if you get excited by ‘smooth shift’ (that’s on Bosch/Di2 as well) or a slightly slimmer downtube then fair enough.

The CX5 (and I don’t own one) is hardly a terrible motor system that was begging for something better, but I still feel it’s the power (and ease of VPN unlocking) that is the main draw for DJI here.

To go back to the original premise of the thread, who controls the future of E-MTB, it’s the consumers right? Not everybody is in the market for a 1000w e-bike, and certainly not everybody is spending £6-9k on one either.

In an expanding e-bike market there’s plenty of room for everybody, we shouldn’t dumb down the picture to ‘most powerful is bestest’, that’s not what happens in any other sector even outside of cycling.

We still can’t ignore the spectre of regulation either, it’s tempting to ignore it, but regulations will also have a say in who controls the future of E-MTB whether we like it or not, unless all the manufacturers go rogue and introduce products strictly ‘for use on private land only’ which puts us in the same camp as e-scooters. No thanks!

 

[steve_sordy]

IBM wasn’t threatened by Woz & Jobs in their garage in Cupertino CA… how’d that work out?

Some more that got caught out.
Kodak, NCR, and all those companies that made mechanical calculators (comptometers?). Pretty much the whole of the UK motorbike industry.

But anyone can get caught out. Was it Bill Gates that said that he thought 64k was enough for anyone? Or is that a myth?

On a more existential level, the Zulus definitely did not see the Gatling gun coming.

 

[Polar]

Autocross

ftfy

I just remember how angry Martin Schanche called Mr. Rallycross in his Ford Escort got when 4 wheel drive appeared in rallycross, he meant it was cheating and demanded them banned.

 

[Scott_123]

Avinox got no takers on their new motor, so they made a bike to show what manufacturers were missing out on. Now for 2026 they have many takers, so 2026 at least will be the Avinox M1 motor and everyone else will be nipping at their heels. 2027 will be an interesting year but for now it will be the Avinox flood.

 

[wb3jma]

It's a ridiculous line in the fing dirt!!! The so called power struggle will force more and more legislation and bueacracy which will strangle off Ebikes as it forces costs higher. I'm looking to get an Ebike but holding off as legislation is starting to pop in the US. I absolutely refuse to get a license, registration and insurance for a Pedal assist 20mph bike. I'll stick to analog as I expect that most Bike Makers will drop prices on analog in a bid to keep it relevant allowing me to buy cheaper a much better analog bike than a Ebike.

 

[Mikerb]

It's a ridiculous line in the fing dirt!!! The so called power struggle will force more and more legislation and bueacracy which will strangle off Ebikes as it forces costs higher. I'm looking to get an Ebike but holding off as legislation is starting to pop in the US. I absolutely refuse to get a license, registration and insurance for a Pedal assist 20mph bike. I'll stick to analog as I expect that most Bike Makers will drop prices on analog in a bid to keep it relevant allowing me to buy cheaper an much better analog bike than a Ebike.

I have no idea what individual states in the US may do but doubt very much anything will be done to throttle the growth of EPACs in Europe or the UK. If there is a legislative review the most likely outcome would be to limit the maximum power output of motors to c 750w with possibly a separate standard for cargo bikes ....as defined by their design and weight. As far as emtb is concerned a 750w limit would have little or no impact on the vast majority of bikes or riders.

 

[Scott_123]

The inside scoop from many manufacturers is they are not selling analog MTB’s hardly at all. They would love to be selling them but no one is buying. Everyone is going EMTB. As far as legislation goes there is still a lot of education going on. Yes some places like NYC have passed stupid laws but people who ride EMTB’s don’t ride in the city. That whole thing was started because delivery people where hot rodding their bikes and causing accidents. Where high profile accidents occur politicans always love to over react.

It wouldn’t surprise me to see analog bikes essentially go away. Some manufacturers have trimmed analog development and production by 70% and shifted all those resources over to EMTB’s.

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

It's a ridiculous line in the fing dirt!!! The so called power struggle will force more and more legislation and bueacracy which will strangle off Ebikes as it forces costs higher. I'm looking to get an Ebike but holding off as legislation is starting to pop in the US. I absolutely refuse to get a license, registration and insurance for a Pedal assist 20mph bike. I'll stick to analog as I expect that most Bike Makers will drop prices on analog in a bid to keep it relevant allowing me to buy cheaper an much better analog bike than a Ebike.

I wouldn't worry about it... have fun now. Nobodies going to be patrolling/enforcing regular folks on trail. Its really targeting youth and "ebikes" being ridden on the street. Not following traffic laws, flying down sidewalks or mutli-use paths.

 

[wb3jma]

I wouldn't worry about it... have fun now. Nobodies going to be patrolling/enforcing regular folks on trail. Its really targeting youth and "ebikes" being ridden on the street. Not following traffic laws, flying down sidewalks or mutli-use paths.

Not sure where you live but I'm in a Blue State in US and yea they can't help themselves but too find someone to nail just to give the impression they did something, so I wouldn't assume that. One day you will find someone checking for License and registration and insurance card(all three of which are by our motor vehicle laws despite being regulated by state misdamenaors which can carry a couple hundred dollars of fines if they are not on you). They can also be felonies if driving with out having obtained them any one of them much less all three!

 

[DirkWisely]

I wouldn't worry about it... have fun now. Nobodies going to be patrolling/enforcing regular folks on trail. Its really targeting youth and "ebikes" being ridden on the street. Not following traffic laws, flying down sidewalks or mutli-use paths.

This is true for many places, but there are always a few that decide to be busybodies.

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

Not sure where you live but I'm in a Blue State in US and yea they can't help themselves but too find someone to nail just to give the impression they did something, so I wouldn't assume that. One day you will find someone checking for License and registration and insurance card(all three of which are by our motor vehicle laws despite being regulated by state misdamenaors which can carry a couple hundred dollars of fines if they are not on you). They can also be felonies if driving with out having obtained them any one of them much less all three!

I live in CT, so blue state as well. NOT concerned. Local towns barely even maintain the parks. We (small group of riders) do 90-95% of the storm cleanup, trimming, cutting down trees, etc... the park rangers drive around, but I've never seen one in the park in all my years. Hell, we ride at night which is illegal and the rangers have seen our lights as they drive by on the adjacent roads. Never bothered.

 

[Emailsucks98]

I live in CT, so blue state as well.

Yeah- WA is obviously a blue state. eBikes are now fully legal most everywhere here in Bellingham (most local trails are either on private property or state parks, both eBike approved).

Broadly avoiding politics here, but far as civil liberties go, eBike access is the least of my worries.
And with that, I am off to our local trail org annual membership meeting.