Advice needed! Torn between Rail+ & Fuel+

[EdP]

Just to throw another one into the mix. This looks good on current deals at the moment, thoughts?

ELyte EVO RS Trail/enduro electric mountain bike

Our latest full-power, full-torque – all the time – ELyte EVO RS will help you make the most of your precious time, every ride: go farther, faster; enjoy more fun trails; hone your skills; explore further, and grow in confidence. With a full carbon frame, a super low centre of gravity for the...

whytebikes.com

 

[Ribinrobin]

Just to throw another one into the mix. This looks good on current deals at the moment, thoughts?

ELyte EVO RS Trail/enduro electric mountain bike

Our latest full-power, full-torque – all the time – ELyte EVO RS will help you make the most of your precious time, every ride: go farther, faster; enjoy more fun trails; hone your skills; explore further, and grow in confidence. With a full carbon frame, a super low centre of gravity for the...

whytebikes.com

Friends got one of these its a beautiful bike. drains battery pretty quick his probs 95kg and always has the extender on. Though he isnt shy with the emtb mode

 

[Plummet]

owned many SLs and the trek fuel exe (a sl bike also "super light") im 90kg ran with it in trail mostly. They are great bikes, choosing between the rail and the fuel is down to this. The rail is a emtb it dont ride like a normal bike (ill await the comments) it rides like a ebike, big strong, fast. A fuel however rides like a normal bike, at times it feels like its not even on. Alot of people will test bikes on road and think the powers enough but on trail it doesnt feel alot. So if you want to keep fit and plan on staying a solo rider or riding with normal bikes the fuel will keep you there. The rail can also do this but no matter how much you turn the power down it will not ride like the fuel or engage how the tq motor does.

if i didnt spend alot of time on my normal bike the fuel + would be my go too. I have a full power one just as i only ride emtb with my friends.

Hard choice but the SL bikes are alot of fun solo riding and will keep you fit!
if i had the terrain for it i would love a slash +

Solid advice.

There is an in between step between sl and heavy full power and that's a built light full power.
You can get the power output if needed but the bike doesnt ride like a heavy dog.

I have a full power that swings between 21.5 and 22.5kg depending on which battery i use 400wh or 600wh.
God dammit the 400wh configuration is so much fun.

For big days i swing back to the car and do a battery swap for a 1000wh day... Boom shuckalaka!

 

[EdP]

owned many SLs and the trek fuel exe (a sl bike also "super light") im 90kg ran with it in trail mostly. They are great bikes, choosing between the rail and the fuel is down to this. The rail is a emtb it dont ride like a normal bike (ill await the comments) it rides like a ebike, big strong, fast. A fuel however rides like a normal bike, at times it feels like its not even on. Alot of people will test bikes on road and think the powers enough but on trail it doesnt feel alot. So if you want to keep fit and plan on staying a solo rider or riding with normal bikes the fuel will keep you there. The rail can also do this but no matter how much you turn the power down it will not ride like the fuel or engage how the tq motor does.

if i didnt spend alot of time on my normal bike the fuel + would be my go too. I have a full power one just as i only ride emtb with my friends.

Hard choice but the SL bikes are alot of fun solo riding and will keep you fit!
if i had the terrain for it i would love a slash +

Great advice and much appreciated!

 

[EdP]

Solid advice.

There is an in between step between sl and heavy full power and that's a built light full power.
You can get the power output if needed but the bike doesnt ride like a heavy dog.

I have a full power that swings between 21.5 and 22.5kg depending on which battery i use 400wh or 600wh.
God dammit the 400wh configuration is so much fun.

For big days i swing back to the car and do a battery swap for a 1000wh day... Boom shuckalaka!

Yep, solid advice indeed. Out of interest what bike are you referring to?

 

[Plummet]

Yep, solid advice indeed. Out of interest what bike are you referring to?

I'm on a Crestline S180. So not a readily available bike. But with research you can find configurable steeds that allow different batteries. Several of the DJI options can be built up light with 600w battery options.
Bosch 800wh and 600wh are the same battery length so i guess something like the rail could be optioned with a 600wh and drop 1kg of weight.

 

[nickf]

They are great bikes, choosing between the rail and the fuel is down to this. The rail is a emtb it dont ride like a normal bike (ill await the comments) it rides like a ebike, big strong, fast. A fuel however rides like a normal bike, at times it feels like its not even on.

I have the old Rail (with gen 4 motor) and also a Fuel+. I love them both! Totally agree with Ribinrobin's comments above.

I only weigh 72kg but I can still get a massive cardio workout on the Rail, although my legs don't ache as much afterwards as they would on the Fuel+ riding the same steep climbs. But if I weighed 100kg I doubt if I'd even be attempting the same difficulty of trails with the Fuel+.

For a 100kg rider I'd say you can still get a great workout with the Rail, but the assist from the Fuel+ might not be adequate for you unless you stick to less steep terrain. The Rail+ will open up a whole new world where you can climb steeper, conquer more technical, and ride further, but you may well find that this would be more limited with the Fuel+. That might not be an issue for you if your terrain isn't that challenging, or you don't aspire to go bigger and steeper. In which case you might enjoy the more "normal MTB" feel of the Fuel+.

 

[EdP]

I have the old Rail (with gen 4 motor) and also a Fuel+. I love them both! Totally agree with Ribinrobin's comments above.

I only weigh 72kg but I can still get a massive cardio workout on the Rail, although my legs don't ache as much afterwards as they would on the Fuel+ riding the same steep climbs. But if I weighed 100kg I doubt if I'd even be attempting the same difficulty of trails with the Fuel+.

For a 100kg rider I'd say you can still get a great workout with the Rail, but the assist from the Fuel+ might not be adequate for you unless you stick to less steep terrain. The Rail+ will open up a whole new world where you can climb steeper, conquer more technical, and ride further, but you may well find that this would be more limited with the Fuel+. That might not be an issue for you if your terrain isn't that challenging, or you don't aspire to go bigger and steeper. In which case you might enjoy the more "normal MTB" feel of the Fuel+.

Hi Nick, I was actually just reading through your SL bikes thread, very interesting. The more I read the more unsure I'm getting? As I stated before coming from an old Whyte T130rs which I've always enjoyed riding, I just find I could do with a little assistance on my local trails these days. I don't ride in any groups and don't do any real tough terrain so the Fuel+ seemed like the obvious choice.

The fly in the ointment is my weight I suppose (which I'm hoping to get down further) and thats where the Rail+ comes in. Not sure I want all that power to be honest its just whether I"m actually going to need it?

I'm hopefully going to try a Rail+ this week but won't be off road.

 

[nickf]

I don't ride in any groups and don't do any real tough terrain so the Fuel+ seemed like the obvious choice.

The fly in the ointment is my weight I suppose (which I'm hoping to get down further) and thats where the Rail+ comes in.

I can't tell you how much your 100kg weight will negatively affect the ride experience I get on the Fuel+ with my 72kg. But I am nearly 68 and not as fit as I once was, so if you are younger/fitter than me then that may compensate in your favour. If you've read my thread you will see just how much I enjoy riding the Fuel+ when I stick to less tough terrain.

The Rail+ will give you the full eMTB experience, and you can tune down the support if you don't need it, but it will still be heavier and less nimble than the Fuel+. Only you can decide which side of the compromise you want to favour.

 

[Emailsucks98]

Age, weight and target HR/zones are topics that often get passed over on the forums, which is unfortunate. They are likely behind some of our contradictory preferences. Surely these are as much of factors as terrain, vert, etc.

For me- 55yr old, 180lbs, hitting 175hr max most rides. Mostly 2-3hr rides. I find it’s zone 3 average for meatbikes and the TQ takes it down closer to zone 2. Getting into zone 3 frequently while avoiding anerobic efforts is my goal.

I was pondering that the HPR60 is roughly %20 more powerful than my HPR50, which scales to the weight difference between myself and the OP. But that’s a hypothetical and doesn’t take terrain, age, or any other factors/preferences into account.

 

[philtenner]

Very interesting discussion! I am in a similar situation to @EdP, looking for my first emtb and really like the fuel+ and it would suit my riding style but I am 6'2 and 103kg so as a heavier but relatively fit rider I keep thinking a more powerful motor like Bosch CX is a better option long term and gives more flexibility if you did want to use extra power on some days, I had a Santa Cruz Vala ordered online but it fell through, so I am back looking again. Price in local shops for the vala busts my budget unfortunately.

Orbea Rise looks like a good option, if happy to go with Shimano EP motor tho!

 

[nickf]

Age, weight and target HR/zones are topics that often get passed over on the forums, which is unfortunate. They are likely behind some of our contradictory preferences. Surely these are as much of factors as terrain, vert, etc.

Agreed. And although vert climbed is an often quoted statistic when comparing performance, range etc, it is a highly variable factor. 1000m+ of repeated circuits up a steady fire road incline requires nowhere near the same effort as 1000m+ of steep rocky slippy technical climbing.

Speed is another highly personal factor that people often omit to consider. I may be able to ride my Fuel+ up the majority of the climbs I typically clean on the Rail, but I won't be going nearly as fast. If climbing speed was important to me for a given ride it would determine my choice of bike.

 

[Ribinrobin]

Im a fit 90kg so alot heavier than the other guys. I never had a issue with not having enough battery mostly riding in the eco/trail mode, but as stated it is a workout. I think coming from a normal bike you will get the experience you want, your whyte t130 with a bit more. When you try the rail you'll see its a different ball game, As i said before if i didnt have buddies on full powers i doubt i would personally own one.

People find the SL as the gateway drug, you get one like the power then bump into someone with a full power and everything changes. Sl bikes also devalue alot and are hard to sell, so these are all things to keep in mind. The sl category is a niche rider.

 

[Hob Nob]

I think at 100kg on the Fuel+ you would be fine. I was out this weekend on my MTe (same system) with some naturally aspirated (v.v. fit) riders round the Welsh valleys. We had a guy with us on a Fuel+ who is similar weight to yourself & I rode mine in mostly low mode (100w extra - im 85kg in kit for reference) which basically turns me into an elite XC for fitness .He rode his in mid power (200w), and was working a bit less hard, but still having a solid workout & he got 1500m of elevation out of it.

It’s about perception. How fast do you want to go up hills really & how much work do you want to do? The maths is easy - if you’re 100kg & can put out a constant 200w, which is pretty average fitness, the bike in low, adding 100w puts you at 3w/kg, which is considerably better than ‘average’. In mid at 200w, thus taking you to 400w output takes you to a synthetic level of fitness that 95% of cyclists would never get to, even with training at 4w/kg. In high, at 350w, thus taking you to 550w output (or 5.5w/kg) you would probably rival some of those lining up for World Cup XCO racing….

The SL/Mid bikes are a much closer experience to riding a normal bike, than they are riding an ebike (as someone who has both).

 

[irie]

The SL/Mid bikes are a much closer experience to riding a normal bike, than they are riding an ebike (as someone who has both).

When do you ride your eMTB?

 

[Hob Nob]

Im very fortunate that I work remotely & live in a great riding spot, so I use it for true lunchtime ‘power hours’ or weekend morning rides when we’re trying to cram in family life with a wife who also rides bikes around our other sports. It does get a bit more general use this time or year, as winter is pretty grim here.

My MTe I used when I’m not so time constricted, or out with the pedallers. I don’t really ride a normal bike any more unless it’s for XC. Sometimes I’ll take it out with our riding group on full fats if I want to wring my neck, but usually I’ll ride the big bike for that as the pace is pretty relentless up & down.

Over the course of the year, I’d say usage is pretty even over all three bikes.

 

[AlertedChimera]

I have a full fat turbo Levo and the older Fuel Exe and without question prefer the ride experience on the EXe over the larger and heavier ebike. The handling and feel of the EXe is very similar to that of a normal bike while also being completely silent and a better workout. The importance of motor feel and maneuverability are hard to quantify but certainly something to take into account. Lately I only use the larger bike for group rides with friends on full power bikes.

 

[Plummet]

Hi Nick, I was actually just reading through your SL bikes thread, very interesting. The more I read the more unsure I'm getting? As I stated before coming from an old Whyte T130rs which I've always enjoyed riding, I just find I could do with a little assistance on my local trails these days. I don't ride in any groups and don't do any real tough terrain so the Fuel+ seemed like the obvious choice.

The fly in the ointment is my weight I suppose (which I'm hoping to get down further) and thats where the Rail+ comes in. Not sure I want all that power to be honest its just whether I"m actually going to need it?

I'm hopefully going to try a Rail+ this week but won't be off road.

The best solution is to find a place where you can hire both bikes and take them for a real blast and see which one you will get on with best.

If keeping up with other full power guys isn't concern then the next question to ask is how long do you want to ride for?
I can get close on 4 hours in low power mode with my 600hw battery at 78kg. I'm guessing you would be 15 to 20% less than that.

Noting that with integrated battery bikes your day is done when the battery is flat. So if the run time is too short then yourl be missing out on riding that you could have otherwise enjoyed with a bike with a bigger battery or swappable battery.... or a fast charger.

 

[EdP]

I think at 100kg on the Fuel+ you would be fine. I was out this weekend on my MTe (same system) with some naturally aspirated (v.v. fit) riders round the Welsh valleys. We had a guy with us on a Fuel+ who is similar weight to yourself & I rode mine in mostly low mode (100w extra - im 85kg in kit for reference) which basically turns me into an elite XC for fitness .He rode his in mid power (200w), and was working a bit less hard, but still having a solid workout & he got 1500m of elevation out of it.

It’s about perception. How fast do you want to go up hills really & how much work do you want to do? The maths is easy - if you’re 100kg & can put out a constant 200w, which is pretty average fitness, the bike in low, adding 100w puts you at 3w/kg, which is considerably better than ‘average’. In mid at 200w, thus taking you to 400w output takes you to a synthetic level of fitness that 95% of cyclists would never get to, even with training at 4w/kg. In high, at 350w, thus taking you to 550w output (or 5.5w/kg) you would probably rival some of those lining up for World Cup XCO racing….

The SL/Mid bikes are a much closer experience to riding a normal bike, than they are riding an ebike (as someone who has both).

Great info. Many thanks

 

[EdP]

The best solution is to find a place where you can hire both bikes and take them for a real blast and see which one you will get on with best.

If keeping up with other full power guys isn't concern then the next question to ask is how long do you want to ride for?
I can get close on 4 hours in low power mode with my 600hw battery at 78kg. I'm guessing you would be 15 to 20% less than that.

Noting that with integrated battery bikes your day is done when the battery is flat. So if the run time is too short then yourl be missing out on riding that you could have otherwise enjoyed with a bike with a bigger battery or swappable battery.... or a fast charger.

Unfortunately I don’t think I will get the chance to try both bikes side by side so to speak. I’m swaying towards my original decision to go for the Fuel+ just because of the type of riding I’ll be doing which will just local flowy trails. I want the work out too to help with fitness. I will have a total of 740wh with the range extender so not too worried about range.

My thinking is the fitter I get, the more I’ll enjoy the HPR60 and hopefully drop some more weight too (that’s the plan anyway)

I still hope to check out the Rail in more detail and take one for a spin later in the week. It will probably all change then

 

[Plummet]

Unfortunately I don’t think I will get the chance to try both bikes side by side so to speak. I’m swaying towards my original decision to go for the Fuel+ just because of the type of riding I’ll be doing which will just local flowy trails. I want the work out too to help with fitness. I will have a total of 740wh with the range extender so not too worried about range.

My thinking is the fitter I get, the more I’ll enjoy the HPR60 and hopefully drop some more weight too (that’s the plan anyway)

I still hope to check out the Rail in more detail and take one for a spin later in the week. It will probably all change then

Fair enough. Take that rail for a spin. If you can get it off road an into some tech climbs and go full boost/beast mode on it. The advantage of the exe is that it feels more like a normal bike. But it cant get to the same level of full power fun that the rail can do. Those session are just a freaken hoot.

The most spent i have been on an e bike is not the low power rides. Its those full pace highspeed tech and single track rides. Just going on an absolute hammerfest until ya brain melts and ya lungs burst out of ya throat.

 

[Emailsucks98]

I will have a total of 740wh with the range extender so not too worried about range.
My thinking is the fitter I get, the more I’ll enjoy the HPR60 and hopefully drop some more weight too (that’s the plan anyway)
I still hope to check out the Rail in more detail and take one for a spin later in the week. It will probably all change then

Random thoughts...I'm 80kg and on an HPR50. You have about 20% weight on me and the HPR60 is about 20% more powerful. Could be a wash....

I never found a need for the RE with the 580wh battery last year. It's great to have the option and there's some backcountry rides where I would bring it.

I think Hob Nob has it spot on- I've had similar ride experiences.

 

[Ribinrobin]

Unfortunately I don’t think I will get the chance to try both bikes side by side so to speak. I’m swaying towards my original decision to go for the Fuel+ just because of the type of riding I’ll be doing which will just local flowy trails. I want the work out too to help with fitness. I will have a total of 740wh with the range extender so not too worried about range.

My thinking is the fitter I get, the more I’ll enjoy the HPR60 and hopefully drop some more weight too (that’s the plan anyway)

I still hope to check out the Rail in more detail and take one for a spin later in the week. It will probably all change then

Im full of foods for thought with this but the exe will feel faster to you than anyone here whose tried both. If this is your only experience of emtb it will be awesome. Based off what your saying i think youre making the right choice, no matter what both are great bikes just both have different purposes.

 

[CarolinaCrawler]

I am 120kg have a Fazua powered bike with the 430 battery and regularly ride with my family (wife and 3 teenagers) that are all on full fat ebikes. It takes more work but I keep up with them. I've done many 20+ miles rides with 2.5-3k feet elevation and still had battery left. I just takes more work. I might spend 45min to 1h in zone 4 on a ride. I still enjoy it.

 

[EdP]

I am 120kg have a Fazua powered bike with the 430 battery and regularly ride with my family (wife and 3 teenagers) that are all on full fat ebikes. It takes more work but I keep up with them. I've done many 20+ miles rides with 2.5-3k feet elevation and still had battery left. I just takes more work. I might spend 45min to 1h in zone 4 on a ride. I still enjoy it.

What power and nm does the Fazua have?

 

[CarolinaCrawler]

What power and nm does the Fazua have?

It's a Fazua ride 60 (60nm and 450watt) in a Decoy SN (a little heavy for a "sl" ebike at 47lbs). I keep up with the full fat guys you just might not be able to have a conversation at the same time.

 

[nickf]

What power and nm does the Fazua have?

Same as the TQ 60. 350W and 60Nm, although it does have a temporary (30 second?) boost button to give a short burst of 450W.

 

[EdP]

Same as the TQ 60. 350W and 60Nm, although it does have a temporary (30 second?) boost button to give a short burst of 450W.

Many thanks

 

[Ribinrobin]

fazua system has been known to be quite unreliable in comparison to the TQ system.

 

[EdP]

Im full of foods for thought with this but the exe will feel faster to you than anyone here whose tried both. If this is your only experience of emtb it will be awesome. Based off what your saying i think youre making the right choice, no matter what both are great bikes just both have different purposes.

I think I'm going to stick with the Fuel+. It seems perfect for the riding I want to do and coming from an analogue bike It will feel like a big difference I'm sure. The whole idea in the first place was to maintain a fitness benefit from the bike.