Pinkbike 2025 Field Test-6 Bike Shootout -Which eMTB Jumps, Corners, Climbs, & Descends the Best

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DirkWisely said:
I'm a little confused about them saying it's rear-biased. I guess lots of setup details factor in, but on my gen3 I had to get my weight forward to not lift the front on steeps. On the gen4 I find I need to keep my weight central or the rear wheel doesn't get enough weight.
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What size are you on?
 
Well I'd just say that people have different opinions, sensativaties, body compositions and so forth so it's not surprising that you have a different opinion.
 
Agreed, but front/rear bias is pretty objective if it's happening or not. If it's so sensitive to the exact size/shape of a person that it can be the opposite from one person to another, then it seems almost pointless to talk about in a review.
 
Suns_PSD said:
Good input from the guys. The e-bike portion begins around 34 minutes in.


Efficiency opinions between the motors begin around 1 hour in.

It's such a shame that Yeti doesn't offer that LTe with a 600w battery and the skinny downtube that goes with it.
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I and many others would find a maximum 600w internal battery unacceptable and rule the bike out of consideration. Range is obviously a huge concern among e-bike buyers. I’d bet market research shows having enough range is the most desirable feature a e-bike can have. A skinny downtube is way further down the list.
 
Powerslider said:
I and many others would find a maximum 600w internal battery unacceptable and rule the bike out of consideration. Range is obviously a huge concern among e-bike buyers. I’d bet market research shows having enough range is the most desirable feature a e-bike can have. A skinny downtube is way further down the list.
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A Bosch 600 has plenty of range. Nearly every review of them states this. They often say something like 'I thought I'd need the 800 but it's just not so and I prefer the 600...'.
The Avinox 600 appears to be pretty inadequate however when paired with the M1. Hopefully this will be improved either through hardware or software changes with the new release.
For example, in the PB review, Dario ran the Avinox in Eco mode while Stephen who also weighs 40#s more and was on a 5# heavier bike ran the Bosch in the auto mode which gives full power the entire time. The Avinox was done and the Bosch still had 13% and the Bosch provides full power to 0% whereas the Avinox derates at 20%.
I've said all along that when you put together all the reviews of people comparing the distances, excluding Plummet, nearly everyone gets 10- 20% less range out of an Avinox. Doing the same route the same speed. Maybe the motor is not less efficient maybe it's all in the programming. But all I know is people do the same ride and they go the same speed as their buddies or their previous times and the Avinox runs out sooner. That's abundantly clear at this point.
Francis mentioned in his updates planned for the Avinox motor that the engineers were aware of the issue and that it was going to be corrected with the M2. That's exactly what I'm waiting for, to verify before I purchase a new bike.
It's been three full years since my last new bike purchase and I want to make it count. It's got to last me a few years.
 
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Suns_PSD said:
A Bosch 600 has plenty of range. Nearly every review of them states this. They often say something like 'I thought I'd need the 800 but it's just not so and I prefer the 600...'.
The Avinox 600 appears to be pretty inadequate however when paired with the M1. Hopefully this will be improved either through hardware or software changes with the new release.
For example, in the PB review, Dario ran the Avinox in Eco mode while Stephen who also weighs 40#s more and was on a 5# heavier bike ran the Bosch in the auto mode which gives full power the entire time. The Avinox was done and the Bosch still had 13% and the Bosch provides full power to 0% whereas the Avinox derates at 20%.
I've said all along that when you put together all the reviews of people comparing the distances, excluding Plummet, nearly everyone gets 10- 20% less range out of an Avinox. Doing the same route the same speed. Maybe the motor is not less efficient maybe it's all in the programming. But all I know is people do the same ride and they go the same speed as their buddies or their previous times and the Avinox runs out sooner. That's abundantly clear at this point.
Francis mentioned in his updates planned for the Avinox motor that the engineers were aware of the issue and that it was going to be corrected with the M2. That's exactly what I'm waiting for, to verify before I purchase a new bike.
It's been three full years since my last new bike purchase and I want to make it count. It's got to last me a few years.
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The term “plenty of range” is subjective. Fact is, people are concerned about range. It’s probably the first and most important concern among buyers. Even just on this site, there’s a surprising number of participants that find even 800w+ isn’t enough and they’re running a range extender and/or charging mid ride. It’s just foolish for a manufacturer to prioritize a cosmetic feature like downtube size at the sacrifice of a functional benefit highly important to buyers.
 
Powerslider said:
I and many others would find a maximum 600w internal battery unacceptable and rule the bike out of consideration. Range is obviously a huge concern among e-bike buyers. I’d bet market research shows having enough range is the most desirable feature a e-bike can have. A skinny downtube is way further down the list.
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Agreed, for me personally anyway, otherwise I’d most probably be riding a Santa Cruz Vala or Bullit now. The strength the LTe has, is adaptability to battery choice and wheel size choice.
 
My terrain is very rough and I'm personally completely beat after about 300-400 watts. I also mostly go all out. Everything hurts, I don't tour, and sadly I don't have real mountains either.
Plummet seems to do the same.
Bosch should have made their 800w battery long and skinny like the Avinox. It objectively handles worse but it would have allowed the same frame to remain skinny and accept a 600 or an 800. This has turned out to be huge in the marketplace. I care as well.
They also should have made the cxr standard, had the screen ready earlier, had the power update sooner and the power update should put out an honest 750w to the output shaft as opposed to about 710 like it really does.
 
Alfmeister said:
Agreed, for me personally anyway, otherwise I’d most probably be riding a Santa Cruz Vala or Bullit now. The strength the LTe has, is adaptability it has, battery choice and wheel size choice.
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That LTE is SOOO good. It also costs so much to get the CXR and then buy a 600w battery. It's literally $15k!
 
Suns_PSD said:
A Bosch 600 has plenty of range. Nearly every review of them states this. They often say something like 'I thought I'd need the 800 but it's just not so and I prefer the 600...'.
The Avinox 600 appears to be pretty inadequate however when paired with the M1. Hopefully this will be improved either through hardware or software changes with the new release.
For example, in the PB review, Dario ran the Avinox in Eco mode while Stephen who also weighs 40#s more and was on a 5# heavier bike ran the Bosch in the auto mode which gives full power the entire time. The Avinox was done and the Bosch still had 13% and the Bosch provides full power to 0% whereas the Avinox derates at 20%.
I've said all along that when you put together all the reviews of people comparing the distances, excluding Plummet, nearly everyone gets 10- 20% less range out of an Avinox. Doing the same route the same speed. Maybe the motor is not less efficient maybe it's all in the programming. But all I know is people do the same ride and they go the same speed as their buddies or their previous times and the Avinox runs out sooner. That's abundantly clear at this point.
Francis mentioned in his updates planned for the Avinox motor that the engineers were aware of the issue and that it was going to be corrected with the M2. That's exactly what I'm waiting for, to verify before I purchase a new bike.
It's been three full years since my last new bike purchase and I want to make it count. It's got to last me a few years.
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I am afraid your whole spiel is that of someone who has no idea what they are talking about. It's fine to have an opinion but please don't state as fact when you clearly have no experience. FWIW two of our riding group fit guys also are on 600 Valas nice bikes n all but they cannot go the distance with the 800s be they the Bosch gen 5s or Avinox which both seem very similar in Range. I ride my Forbidden in Turbo but these guys have to start turning theirs down and consequently drop off the back of the group. If you want range it's simple physics either turn it down or get a bigger battery. The end
 
Powerslider said:
The term “plenty of range” is subjective. Fact is, people are concerned about range. It’s probably the first and most important concern among buyers. Even just on this site, there’s a surprising number of participants that find even 800w+ isn’t enough and they’re running a range extender and/or charging mid ride. It’s just foolish for a manufacturer to prioritize a cosmetic feature like downtube size at the sacrifice of a functional benefit highly important to buyers.
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But what do you do if a Bosch 600w goes nearly as far as an Avinox 800 while weighing less, a Bosch 600 +250 RE goes much further than an Avinox 800, and a Bosch 800+250w RE goes around 50% further than an Avinox 800? I mean if range is so important, the answer is clear on which full power motor system to buy at this time. Buy a VLT or LTe and get all the range.
 
Chairman said:
I am afraid your whole spiel is that of someone who has no idea what they are talking about. It's fine to have an opinion but please don't state as fact when you clearly have no experience. FWIW two of our riding group fit guys also are on 600 Valas nice bikes n all but they cannot go the distance with the 800s be they the Bosch gen 5s or Avinox which both seem very similar in Range. I ride my Forbidden in Turbo but these guys have to start turning theirs down and consequently drop off the back of the group. If you want range it's simple physics either turn it down or get a bigger battery. The end
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Sorry but I trust the half dozen range reviews that I've read over you, or me for that matter.

But I've also always acknowledged that it's just my opinion, an opinion with a lot of outside evidence however.

Francis says that Avinox is aware of the issue. I suspect it'll be corrected with the M2. I think it's the documented seal drag paired with an over aggressive tune that really can't be turned down to work as naturally at low rider inputs as the Bosch that causes the Avinox to burn extra battery. They also are proven to have had running changes and wear issues that effect noise and drag.

The latest range test was by Dario published just today. Sure, like all of them it has shortcomings, but the conclusion is consistent.
 
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Suns_PSD said:
Sorry but I trust the half dozen range reviews that I've read over you, or me for that matter.

Francis says that Avinox is aware of the issue. I suspect it'll be corrected with the M2.

The latest one was by Dario published just today.
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And I will trust first hand experience . I felt I needed to speak out and try to stiffle mis information
 
Chairman said:
And I will trust first hand experience . I felt I needed to speak out and try to stiffle mis information
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Its also hard to sus out how much effort folks are putting in when doing these comparisons. Just cause two riders are following each other and doing laps or climbing doesn't mean their both equally working as hard.

Are the two drive systems truly equal in assistance and power when doing the comparison? Though, it does seem the Avinox system is a bit more power hungry when you look at various comparisons. I wonder if the Avinox is just to willing to provide assistance quicker... even if the power/torque settings are very similar, given it does 800x vs. 400x like the rest.

600wH with the Avinox is likely not enough, when its your new toy and your hooning in turbo all the time.
 
Something that needs to be considered is that for best battery longevity, you really don’t want to charge the battery to 100%. My personal example is I utilize the bike’s 80% limit for weekday (shorter) rides, but I still charge to 100% for ‘full’ weekend rides because I need the range. That’s not even touching on the battery degradation issue. No way I’d buy a bike with only 600w capacity from the internal battery. I don’t care how svelte the downtube is.
 
Powerslider said:
Something that needs to be considered is that for best battery longevity, you really don’t want to charge the battery to 100%. My personal example is I utilize the bike’s 80% limit for weekday (shorter) rides, but I still charge to 100% for ‘full’ weekend rides because I need the range. That’s not even touching on the battery degradation issue. No way I’d buy a bike with only 600w capacity from the internal battery. I don’t care how svelte the downtube is.
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Is there an easy way to do this with Bosch or Avinox?

I'm coming off a Shimano and it would be a faff (for the brits) to monitor the charge levels. I've just been fully charging it every time, but I'm only into it for 3 months and 600 miles and its going back to the dealer permanently due to warranty issues (frame not drive system).
 
bmwpowere36m3 said:
Is there an easy way to do this with Bosch or Avinox?

I'm coming off a Shimano and it would be a faff (for the brits) to monitor the charge levels. I've just been fully charging it every time, but I'm only into it for 3 months and 600 miles and its going back to the dealer permanently due to warranty issues (frame not drive system).
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There is with the Levo 4. There's an option to charge to 80% or 100%.
 
bmwpowere36m3 said:
Its also hard to sus out how much effort folks are putting in when doing these comparisons. Just cause two riders are following each other and doing laps or climbing doesn't mean their both equally working as hard.

Are the two drive systems truly equal in assistance and power when doing the comparison? Though, it does seem the Avinox system is a bit more power hungry when you look at various comparisons. I wonder if the Avinox is just to willing to provide assistance quicker... even if the power/torque settings are very similar, given it does 800x vs. 400x like the rest.

600wH with the Avinox is likely not enough, when its your new toy and your hooning in turbo all the time.
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For sure.

Like I've said before, I think it's mostly in the programming but it doesn't seem that for single track the extra assistance, really improves speed or anything else, it just eats battery. It's true that you can turn the Avinox down, but some talk about a problematic connection between light pedal inputs and the response. The torque response.

In about 2 weeks we'll have the actual efficiency numbers in the big motor test that's occurring online right now. But even that comes with an asterick. Off the top of my head the Avinox has absolutely had running changes, the shaft seal loosens up over time altering noise and drag, and the thing is literally getting replaced within weeks anyways!

BTW, I don't discuss this to diss the current Avinox or anyone's purchase decision. I literally want to buy the best bike for me, and from where I sit the top 6 bikes are the Crestline, the Rogue, the LTE, E-core, VLT Ranger & I also like Regulator/ Wild/ Vala (basically all the same).
As you can see half of that list has an Avinox motor. But I don't like Rattles and I'd prefer a 600w battery that will last for 3 hours so I'm waiting to see the updated M2. It's that simple really. If the M2 is just more powerful with no other improvements (highly unlikely) I'll only buy a Bosch. But if they fix these issues, I want that Rogue.
 
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Suns_PSD said:
For sure.

Like I've said before, I think it's mostly in the programming but it doesn't seem that for single track the extra assistance, really improves speed or anything else, it just eats battery. It's true that you can turn the Avinox down, but some talk about a problematic connection between light pedal inputs and the response. The torque response.

In about 2 weeks we'll have the actual efficiency numbers in the big motor test that's occurring online right now. But even that comes with an asterick. Off the top of my head the Avinox has absolutely had running changes, the shaft seal loosens up over time altering noise and drag, and the thing is literally getting replaced within weeks anyways!

BTW, I don't discuss this to diss the current Avinox or anyone's purchase decision. I literally want to buy the best bike for me, and from where I sit the top 6 bikes are the Crestline, the Rogue, the LTE, E-core, VLT Ranger & I also like Regulator/ Wild/ Vala (basically all the same).
As you can see half of that list has an Avinox motor. But I don't like Rattles and I'd prefer a 600w battery that will last for 3 hours so I'm waiting to see the updated M2. It's that simple really. If the M2 is just more powerful with no other improvements (highly unlikely) I'll only buy a Bosch. But if they fix these issues, I want that Rogue.
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Haha. Sounds like your taking the piss
 
Powerslider said:
A skinny downtube is way further down the list.
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The other problem with skinny downtubes is that battery weight is focused higher up whereas with fatter downtubes the same capacity battery can be located lower down - a definite advantage in my eyes.
 
irie said:
The other problem with skinny downtubes is that battery weight is focused higher up whereas with fatter downtubes the same capacity battery can be located lower down - a definite advantage in my eyes.
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You're a function over form guy.
But it's pretty obvious that most are not, including me I guess because everyone wants that skinny downtube.
I have no doubt that Bosch would be selling more motors if they'd went with a skinny 800 watt battery and all the Bosch frames are skinny looking and could run either battery.
Also the fat diameter downtube seems to gain some weight.
 
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irie said:
The other problem with skinny downtubes is that battery weight is focused higher up whereas with fatter downtubes the same capacity battery can be located lower down - a definite advantage in my eyes.
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Yeah slimline for me. As long as the manufacturer has got the balance right then there is still plenty of weight low and centered. Slim for the win in my book and it's not all about ascetics either I just find the slim feels better to ride but of course like most of us my experience is limited by what I have owned. Previous bike cannondale moterra with a 625 bat and current Forbidden with a 800
 
DirkWisely said:
I'm a little confused about them saying it's rear-biased. I guess lots of setup details factor in, but on my gen3 I had to get my weight forward to not lift the front on steeps. On the gen4 I find I need to keep my weight central or the rear wheel doesn't get enough weight.
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Climbing is not where f/r ratios are too important, it's cornering where it's immediately obvious.
Particularly, fast corners with minimal support.
Having rode a levo 4 for a day on a variety of stuff in BC, I'd agree with their assessment. Nice detail work, good motor, suspension is mid, geo is not ideal for faster riding. Bikes in general are getting pretty good, and the big S is falling behind more every year.
 
Suns_PSD said:
Good input from the guys. The e-bike portion begins around 34 minutes in.


Efficiency opinions between the motors begin around 1 hour in.

It's such a shame that Yeti doesn't offer that LTe with a 600w battery and the skinny downtube that goes with it.
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You could probably fit a 600wh to it as the 600 and 800wh gen 5 batteries are the same length.
 
Suns_PSD said:
Sorry but I trust the half dozen range reviews that I've read over you, or me for that matter.

But I've also always acknowledged that it's just my opinion, an opinion with a lot of outside evidence however.

Francis says that Avinox is aware of the issue. I suspect it'll be corrected with the M2. I think it's the documented seal drag paired with an over aggressive tune that really can't be turned down to work as naturally at low rider inputs as the Bosch that causes the Avinox to burn extra battery. They also are proven to have had running changes and wear issues that effect noise and drag.

The latest range test was by Dario published just today. Sure, like all of them it has shortcomings, but the conclusion is consistent.
Click to expand...
I agree with chairman, I can't see any difference in the real world between bosch and dji once the the modes are set to similar outputs. If the dji bike is set to the stock settings then yes it burns more. If there is a slight inefficiency is measured in a few wh not the difference between a 600 and 800wh battery. The only time a 600wh will do the same as an 800wh is if the 600wh guy is either lighter and or uses more lungs and legs.

This is after multiple, multiple rides with dji guys comparing battery burn rate. The other thing to consider is that its only really an issue when you are doing a full battery burn day going for max range with multiple riders of different battery size and models.
 
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