Insight on my short list please

[Noclutch]

So, I'm starting to narrow down my list, though I'm sure it could be longer. I am inclined to stick with brands that I have local dealer representation. This is mostly because of the E factor- motor, battery, programming, integration etc. Back in the analog days I never needed a dealer to do my wrenching, but E brings another level of potential service needs, so many one off or rare emtbs that are "euro-centric" aren't on my list as I am in the USA.

So the top 3 at this juncture* are all comparably spec'd more or less, with some notable differences though. I'll list them form lightest and ironically least expensive to heaviest and most, and with their standout pros or cons. All frames carbon, with XO AXS and Maven silvers, and carbon rims.

Trek Fuel+ MX-
pros- lightest at 42#, multi adjustable suspension, customization, including a few fork and shock options (even coil) for no or minimal cost change, and even capability to go mullet or 29er with link changes, pretty easy battery removal.
cons-smallest motor and battery (60nm and 580 Wh), Bonty/in-house rear hub, and a meh dealer from what I can tell.

Santa Cruz Vala- middle weight @47, costing a grand more than the Trek.
pros- Bosch perf CX motor with 100 nm..., arguably the best rims with Reserves, DT350s, good dealer
cons-...600Wh battery despite big motor, mullet only, battery fixed in the frame- not easy removal at all.

Specialized Levo 4 Pro- heaviest @52, most expensive by four hundred more than Vala.
pros-good dealer, some chassis adjustability, same DT350, super easy battery removal, and biggest battery...
con- ...and biggest battery contributing to FF, also mullet only.

Anyways, I'm positive that I am leaving out some significant differences or considerations between the above three that more knowledgeable members can que me in on.

 

[jever98]

I guess it really depends on what you ride like and what you value. To me - and you might be different - the Fuel is the most attractive bike. 60NM is enough for me, the removable battery is great, the TQ gets praise, and if memory serves it's adjustable. You can also toggle your battery capacity to need with a range extender, if I'm not mistaken.

On the Vala the fixed battery would be a turnoff to me, on the Levo the weight. But if you want/need the extra 40-50NM because all your friends ride full power and you want to, too, or you don't mind the weight because your trails are wide open and you wrestle the bike less, then maybe your choice should be different.

Just my 2c.

 

[Plummet]

Go and hire some e bikes and do full battery burn days on each option and then formulate an opinion about which one best suits.

Questions to consider.

Do you ride with others?
if so what bikes do they ride? the 60nm bike wont keep up with full power riders. So if you do group rides. Buy a bike that doesn't put you in the hurt locker out of the gate.

How long do you want to ride for?.
600hw full power will give round around 4 hours max in lower settings. 2 hours in high settings. is that enough? do you want to ride for longer? in which case a bike with an easily replacable battery allows you to swap batteries and keep riding. or a bike with a fast charger allows you to charge over lunch time and keep on riding.

Will you need to charge the battery in places where you cant take a dirty bike? EG hotel rooms.
If you travel and need to charge up then often times removable batteries are the way when its not appropriate to take a whole bike inside.

What weight of bike starts to reduce your fun factor? or what is the max weight you are happy with?
The more you want the E to ride like an mtb the less weight it must be. You will compromise range and power to get lighter weight. But opposite to that the heavier the bike is the more of a pig it rides like.

Only you can answer the weight question by demoing/hiring bikes and taking them for a ride.

 

[jever98]

Go and hire some e bikes and do full battery burn days on each option and then formulate an opinion about which one best suits.

Questions to consider.

Do you ride with others?
if so what bikes do they ride? the 60nm bike wont keep up with full power riders. So if you do group rides. Buy a bike that doesn't put you in the hurt locker out of the gate.

How long do you want to ride for?.
600hw full power will give round around 4 hours max in lower settings. 2 hours in high settings. is that enough? do you want to ride for longer? in which case a bike with an easily replacable battery allows you to swap batteries and keep riding. or a bike with a fast charger allows you to charge over lunch time and keep on riding.

Will you need to charge the battery in places where you cant take a dirty bike? EG hotel rooms.
If you travel and need to charge up then often times removable batteries are the way when its not appropriate to take a whole bike inside.

What weight of bike starts to reduce your fun factor? or what is the max weight you are happy with?
The more you want the E to ride like an mtb the less weight it must be. You will compromise range and power to get lighter weight. But opposite to that the heavier the bike is the more of a pig it rides like.

Only you can answer the weight question by demoing/hiring bikes and taking them for a ride.

+1. Solid advice IMO.

 

[Noclutch]

Go and hire some e bikes and do full battery burn days on each option and then formulate an opinion about which one best suits.

Questions to consider.

Do you ride with others? Rarely, but I've contemplated the local CC races (in e class of course- been there analog and like the format), which are absolutely dominated by Levos...
if so what bikes do they ride? the 60nm bike wont keep up with full power riders. So if you do group rides. Buy a bike that doesn't put you in the hurt locker out of the gate.

How long do you want to ride for?. 1-2 hours
600hw full power will give round around 4 hours max in lower settings. 2 hours in high settings. is that enough? do you want to ride for longer? NO in which case a bike with an easily replacable battery allows you to swap batteries and keep riding. or a bike with a fast charger allows you to charge over lunch time and keep on riding.

Will you need to charge the battery in places where you cant take a dirty bike? EG hotel rooms. No
If you travel and need to charge up then often times removable batteries are the way when its not appropriate to take a whole bike inside.

What weight of bike starts to reduce your fun factor? Seems over 50# or what is the max weight you are happy with? 25#, but that's analog
The more you want the E to ride like an mtb the less weight it must be. You will compromise range and power to get lighter weight. But opposite to that the heavier the bike is the more of a pig it rides like. LOL so true!

Only you can answer the weight question by demoing/hiring bikes and taking them for a ride.

See above in bold for some answers.
Thank you Plummet

 

[JP-NZ]

After the above the next question I would ask is how fit are you currently.. If you've come off a normal MTB and are fine doing big climbs already then the Fuel maybe right up your alley. If you struggle to climb and want more power on the ups then a Vala would be my choice. The 60nm v 100nm is a large difference a better way to look at it is watts. 350 on the Fuel and 750 watts on the Vala.

 

[Plummet]

I

See above in bold for some answers.
Thank you Plummet

f ya gonna race the full power is the way and the light.

My pick out of that list would be the Vala. Its lightish. Can be turned down to the same power levels at the fuel, but can be grunted to full power when needed. The fuel cant go any more than 60nm.

 

[Noclutch]

After the above the next question I would ask is how fit are you currently.. If you've come off a normal MTB and are fine doing big climbs already then the Fuel maybe right up your alley. If you struggle to climb and want more power on the ups then a Vala would be my choice. The 60nm v 100nm is a large difference a better way to look at it is watts. 350 on the Fuel and 750 watts on the Vala.

Fairly fit, for 65, and having had a few years off the analog due to sciatica, then hormone suppression for a year
I used to be able to climb anything where I ride, but yes, now I struggle. And struggling tends to aggravate the sciatica (as do over two hour rides as well), hence the move to emtbs. With my Levo 2 (tank), PRs from 15 years ago are dropping with every ride LOL
Regarding the wattage, I did demo a Heckler, which I loved, except for I felt that it's motor was lacking relative to the Levo.
That's why the Vala may split the difference for me.

 

[Noclutch]

I

f ya gonna race the full power is the way and the light.

My pick out of that list would be the Vala. Its lightish. Can be turned down to the same power levels at the fuel, but can be grunted to full power when needed. The fuel cant go any more than 60nm.

Yes that is the direction I’m leaning at this time, if I can get over the idea of having an integrated battery…

 

[RickBullotta]

So, I'm starting to narrow down my list, though I'm sure it could be longer. I am inclined to stick with brands that I have local dealer representation. This is mostly because of the E factor- motor, battery, programming, integration etc. Back in the analog days I never needed a dealer to do my wrenching, but E brings another level of potential service needs, so many one off or rare emtbs that are "euro-centric" aren't on my list as I am in the USA.

So the top 3 at this juncture* are all comparably spec'd more or less, with some notable differences though. I'll list them form lightest and ironically least expensive to heaviest and most, and with their standout pros or cons. All frames carbon, with XO AXS and Maven silvers, and carbon rims.

Trek Fuel+ MX-
pros- lightest at 42#, multi adjustable suspension, customization, including a few fork and shock options (even coil) for no or minimal cost change, and even capability to go mullet or 29er with link changes, pretty easy battery removal.
cons-smallest motor and battery (60nm and 580 Wh), Bonty/in-house rear hub, and a meh dealer from what I can tell.

Santa Cruz Vala- middle weight @47, costing a grand more than the Trek.
pros- Bosch perf CX motor with 100 nm..., arguably the best rims with Reserves, DT350s, good dealer
cons-...600Wh battery despite big motor, mullet only, battery fixed in the frame- not easy removal at all.

Specialized Levo 4 Pro- heaviest @52, most expensive by four hundred more than Vala.
pros-good dealer, some chassis adjustability, same DT350, super easy battery removal, and biggest battery...
con- ...and biggest battery contributing to FF, also mullet only.

Anyways, I'm positive that I am leaving out some significant differences or considerations between the above three that more knowledgeable members can que me in on.

Do yourself a favor and at least ride an Avinox powered bike - Amflow, Crestline, etc...my Amflow at just over 45 lbs is the best eMTB I've owned - compared to an S-Works Levo, Pivot Shuttle, Orbea Rise, and KTM Machina.

 

[jever98]

Yes that is the direction I’m leaning at this time, if I can get over the idea of having an integrated battery…

I am by no means an Amflow evangelist, but I was wondering if it wouldn't be a good choice for you: pretty light, same travel as the Vala, on sale at a good price - so you could tweak the build to your wants.

 

[Noclutch]

Do yourself a favor and at least ride an Avinox powered bike - Amflow, Crestline, etc...my Amflow at just over 45 lbs is the best eMTB I've owned - compared to an S-Works Levo, Pivot Shuttle, Orbea Rise, and KTM Machina.

Actually a friend of mine has one. Took it on ride of only 100 yards of single track* ( hardly a test), but I was impressed with the package for sure. Well spec’d. And with the current sale, the price is right!
Not race legal in my state, but that’s not necessarily a deal breaker as I don’t know if I’d get back into that anyways.

 

[jever98]

Actually a friend of mine has one. Took it on ride of only 100 yards of single track, but I was impressed with the package for sure. And with the current sale, the price is right!

Get him to lend it to you for a day ;-)

 

[RickBullotta]

Actually a friend of mine has one. Took it on ride of only 100 yards of single track* ( hardly a test), but I was impressed with the package for sure. Well spec’d. And with the current sale, the price is right!
Not race legal in my state, but that’s not necessarily a deal breaker as I don’t know if I’d get back into that anyways.

You can restrict it to Class 1 very easily for race days.

 

[Noclutch]

You can restrict it to Class 1 very easily for race days.

True, but our promoter apparently doesn't want to hassle with policing the Amflows and has just outright banned them!? Plus, he already has his hands full watching out for the Levo 4 guys for potential shenanigans

 

[jever98]

True, but our promoter apparently doesn't want to hassle with policing the Amflows and has just outright banned them!? Plus, he already has his hands full watching out for the Levo 4 guys for potential shenanigans

There is nothing more serious than amateur local races

 

[nickf]

My 2 cents worth; below is my post copied from the Gen 2 Fuel + thread. Of course, only you can say if it's relevant to your needs.

I've been riding my 2022 Trek Rail for the last three years and modifying it along the way to the point where I think it rides really well. But the release of the new Bosch Gen 5 motor and the launch of a whole bunch of great new bikes from various brands has led to me to test ride a few new full fat and one SL bikes over the last year or so to see if maybe I might be missing out on something even better (Santa Cruz Vala, Heckler SL, Mondraker Crafty, Amflow, Moustache,...). Yeah they were all fantastic bikes, and the Gen 5 and Avinox motors deliver impressive performance. But did any of them genuinely merit shelling out a shed load of more cash to be worth moving on from my trusty Rail? I personally felt than none of them rode so much better or that the new motor performances gave me more enjoyment than I can achieve with my old 85Nm Gen 4 Bosch. Of course, YMMV.

Then this weekend I test rode the Trek Fuel+ MX for 70km and 1800m+ over the two days.

I was hoping this experience would finally satisfy my curiosity with the mid power motor options, and I could return the test bike to the shop knowing that these motors (or at least the TQ60) could not give me enough assistance for my 67 year old legs to get me up my local steep, rocky and often very technical climbs.

The result.... I was absolutely blown away by this bike!

The motor is 99% totally silent and it was a real joy to hear nothing but the crunch of my tyres over the ground and, although I rode at a slower pace than with the Rail, the ride experience was "purer" and I felt more in touch with the trail. On the Sunday ride I took it up some of our steepest local trails with some challenging technical elements, and to my great surprise the motor power was entirely sufficient except in a few of the most tricky and steep sections where I finally lost control or traction and had to get off and push it past the obstacles.

I thought I would need to constantly ride in High mode to get the support I required, but in fact I found Med mode was adequate for much of the time. The power delivery is so silent, subtle and natural that I often had to check the display to confirm that the motor was still working!

Regarding the bike itself, it is so (comparably) light and nimble that it accelerates breathtakingly fast under gravity. It handles brilliantly and is both stable when needed and playful when asked. I had an absolute blast on it over the weekend and when I returned it to the shop it only took me a few minutes to decide to buy it on the spot! (Which is something I never do!)

So, is it a "better" bike than my old Rail? I wouldn't say that, but it is a bike that gives a genuinely different but equally thrilling ride experience. Maybe not quite as capable in the extremes, so I might still choose the Rail for enduro rides, but it is ideal for a less aggressive day out when the purity and pleasure of the ride is more important than the speed and adrenaline rush (although I got that too!).

I was so impressed with this bike and this motor system that I wanted to share my experience here so that anyone else who is "SL curious" but wonders if they could live without full fat power might be tempted to give it a try.

 

[Shark58]

I'm biased, my new Vala arrived last week of October and has exceeded all my expectations.

My wife rides a Scott eLumen with TQ50 motor. At 16.2 kg definitely extremely light, but for my type of riding lacking power.
The Specialized Levo 4 is just to heavy. I have a bike of that weight class and was looking for something lighter, with full power motor and well built and the Vala fit those criteria.

Watching a real master riding the Vala definitely tells me, that the bike is not my limiting factor.