Climbing

[Mikerb]

I thought I would share some thoughts on climbing technique. I know there has been a lot of apparent enthusiasm for more power and its effect on climbs but here I not talking about long gradual climbs whether on single track or gravel/fireroads but rather short but very steep climbs with roots or rocks etc. In my case these are usually in forests.
I ride a Whyte e160 RSX with the Bosch gen 4 85nm motor. I have the emtb mode set at 4/4 and it is the only mode I use, never needing turbo. The bike has Sram T type , 36 chainring and 10/52 12 speed cassette.
I have not installed the latest firmware with emtb+ etc because I I tried that on my other identical bike and found no benefit. I have never run short of power on a climb...in fact never even use the 52t cog.
The most successful set up/style I have found for steep tech climbs on this bike is riding seated with the dropper about 50% slammed, torso low head over the stem. Mostly using 2nd gear (50t) as early as possible and a very high cadence, trying to keep that as constant as possible. On occasion I may have to stand , especially on the last few metres to stop the front wheel lifting but keep low and my bum as far back as I can to maintain rear wheel grip.
So what causes a fail?
The most obvious factor in my case is whether the climb is at the beginning or towards the end of a ride!! Maybe not for the obvious reasons though!! I'm 74 so fatigue towards the end of a ride can be expected but the issue is not lack of leg power because if I fail a climb towards the end of a ride, I don't resort to pushing the bike up, I go back to the bottom and do the climb again. What I have identified is that the reason I failed first time was over compensation because my brain feared my legs would lack the power!! So instead of maintaining a fast but smooth cadence I would go full beast mode.
I now avoid (mostly) that issue simply by being aware of it.

 

[Stihldog]

I stay between 2nd 7th gear and EMTB mode during a trail climb. Mostly blue trails and the occasional black. The only time I use Turbo mode during a climb is on the pavement for about 1-2kms from my door.
Some of the gravel roads have a 15-18% grade, which is steep for any bike, but those access the bike/hiking trails. So a trail climb is more challenging. Riding up the trails during busy times can be dangerous if you happen to meet another bike coming down at speed …so early morning are better (weekdays before noon) when the old-farts on EMTB bikes come out (like myself).

I originally had a 60mm stem but quickly changed that to 45mm. Took a few rides to get use to the change but I really needed that for the down portions. I now lean forward more during steep climbs in order to keep the front wheel on the ground.

I also drop the saddle about 50% most of the time during a climb. Sure it’s more leg power but I have better stability. I find that I can aim the bike better thru difficult sections ( a root wall, with rocks, wet, steep, a pair of narrow trees and a sudden left hand turn). The line has to be almost perfect and you need to be in the right gear and maintain perfect cadence. …or else.

Climbing in snow is another challenge. Type of snow conditions and constant speed is necessary. If you stop…your ride can be over and you might as well turn around …or hike-a-bike.

I time my riding season to have new tires just before winter riding climbs.

 

[Mikerb]

I stay between 2nd 7th gear and EMTB mode during a trail climb. Mostly blue trails and the occasional black. The only time I use Turbo mode during a climb is on the pavement for about 1-2kms from my door.
Some of the gravel roads have a 15-18% grade, which is steep for any bike, but those access the bike/hiking trails. So a trail climb is more challenging. Riding up the trails during busy times can be dangerous if you happen to meet another bike coming down at speed …so early morning are better (weekdays before noon) when the old-farts on EMTB bikes come out (like myself).

I originally had a 60mm stem but quickly changed that to 45mm. Took a few rides to get use to the change but I really needed that for the down portions. I now lean forward more during steep climbs in order to keep the front wheel on the ground.

I also drop the saddle about 50% most of the time during a climb. Sure it’s more leg power but I have better stability. I find that I can aim the bike better thru difficult sections ( a root wall, with rocks, wet, steep, a pair of narrow trees and a sudden left hand turn). The line has to be almost perfect and you need to be in the right gear and maintain perfect cadence. …or else.

Climbing in snow is another challenge. Type of snow conditions and constant speed is necessary. If you stop…your ride can be over and you might as well turn around …or hike-a-bike.

I time my riding season to have new tires just before winter riding climbs.

Sounds similar to me......staying low lowers the centre of gravity and it seems to me it is easier to make small fore and aft body weight changes. I have no experience of climbing in snow.....snow is pretty rare on the south coast of the UK. I think keeping the cadence, and power delivery constant is something rarely emphasised in lots of riding scenarios but especially on climbs where either looping out or losing grip...or both....is what needs to be avoided

 

[Stihldog]

Sounds similar to me......staying low lowers the centre of gravity and it seems to me it is easier to make small fore and aft body weight changes. I have no experience of climbing in snow.....snow is pretty rare on the south coast of the UK. I think keeping the cadence, and power delivery constant is something rarely emphasised in lots of riding scenarios but especially on climbs where either looping out or losing grip...or both....is what needs to be avoided

I think even in the snow my dropper is 50%. There’s so much sudden twisting and turning that stability and momentum becomes important.…especially during a climb.

Not every trail here is climb-able, but I like the challenge. Oh…and the crash is usually not as dramatic.. But what goes up usually has to come down. So there’s the rub…it’s a compromise. But I enjoy climbing .

But climbing any trail, any time, keeps you busy. Geometry can be critically important and quick access to the bar buttons is key. I just wish I could apply those skills to my keyboard typing problems.

 

[Ride 2d@y]

Quick feedback from another 70+ rider, what comes to my mind is - look far ahead and choose best line, ratchet to avoid rock strikes, shift weight to maintain traction - and ride flat pedals for quick dabs

 

[Stihldog]

Quick feedback from another 70+ rider, what comes to my mind is - look far ahead and choose best line, ratchet to avoid rock strikes, shift weight to maintain traction - and ride flat pedals for quick dabs

Flat peddles are definitely the way when a quick dab is necessary. Aligning those cranks to avoid strikes has to be done so quickly while still maintaining momentum. I don’t know how using spds is possible? But I use magnetic peddles (Avery Hustle) and even those can be tricky.

Reminds me of hitting a large rock during a climb whilst next to a steep ravine. Front wheel went up, bike leaned towards the ravine, foot disengaged properly …but there was nothing but air for a dab…. So into the ravine we went.

On our descent my leg became tangled in some roots and then the bike pinned me to the side. I hung upside down and my leg felt as though it was about to break.

I flipped the bike off of me and it slid another 20-30’ towards the bottom. I then freed myself from the leg-clamping-root-system and slid further down. The hard part was carrying the EMTB out of the ravine. The whole thing was in slow-mo and kinda funny.

 

[Mikerb]

ah...the " air dab" usually followed by the other freestyle trick, the "falling log"! I think the last time i did that was on a trail that ran around a steep hill about half way down.......just a narrow trail probably mostly made by cows making their way back to the farm. The hill gave a superb view of the coastline so I stopped to take a photo. I put my left foot down onto what looks like a grass stump...turned out to be just mostly fresh air. Me and the bike went off the side of the trail and I ended up on my back head first pointing down the hill...the bike on top of me. Fortunately my mate was on hand to help!!.
Never seen any benefit in using anything other than flat pedals on an EMTB......on that occasion i would probably have suffered a damaged ankle if clipped in. As it was it was just subject to uncontrolled laughter by my mate!!

 

[Doomanic]

Climbs are for drinking beer and eating pies which is why I stick to fire roads for them.

 

[Mikerb]

Climbs are for drinking beer and eating pies which is why I stick to fire roads for them.

yes, if you are talking a bout recovery climbs back to the trail head to blast down again, I totally agree. For me speed is not relevant. I chat to my mate a bout the descent, let the adrenaline subside, take on some juice and enjoy the scenery.

 

[Plummet]

I have done all of the above except drink beer and ride uphill im sure ive eaten pies.....

 

[Plummet]

yes, if you are talking a bout recovery climbs back to the trail head to blast down again, I totally agree. For me speed is not relevant. I chat to my mate a bout the descent, let the adrenaline subside, take on some juice and enjoy the scenery.

If speed is not relevant then why have an E at all? You could just tootle up the hill slower and get to the top in a leisurely time to bom down. In my mind E is all about getting to the top faster so you can bom down and get in more laps in the same amount of time.

 

[Mikerb]

You will understand when you get to 75 years old

 

[irie]

If speed is not relevant then why have an E at all? You could just tootle up the hill slower and get to the top in a leisurely time to bom down. In my mind E is all about getting to the top faster so you can bom down and get in more laps in the same amount of time.

Because as @Mikerb says above, many older riders without E assistance would be unable to get up the hills.

@Plummet How old are you?

 

[Mikerb]

Because as @Mikerb says above, many older riders without E assistance would be unable to get up the hills.

How old are you?

It is not that I cannot climb them on an analogue but rather whilst time spent doing so is of no consequence to me, energy conservation for the fun bits is.. I rode analogueuntil I was 69...probably a few years too long.

 

[Waynemarlow]

Starting to climb almost trials type sections ( well OK to me they are ) and I'm finding sitting is not optimal. Having watched Steve Jones on another channel, he seems to climb more standing up on the tighter sections and only on the more prolonged uphill stuff do you see him sitting. In some ways I'm enjoying more the uphill than the downhill.

Having now tried standing I'm starting to use that method more and more, It gives great freedom to move the bike about and more freedom to keep peddling ( which is the one thing that regulalry stops me, concentration seems to stop the legs moving ). The one big difference is that you seem to pull up more on the bars giving greater traction and yet you seem to not suffer any sort of front wheel lift off as your body just seems to be more in the middle of COG.

Looking foward to the winter muddy trails, they are brilliant fun on Ebikes, technically challenging and yet its all done at a slow pace. Riding Ebikes on muddy trails is just so much fun compared to the old analogue slog.

 

[Mikerb]

Starting to climb almost trials type sections ( well OK to me they are ) and I'm finding sitting is not optimal. Having watched Steve Jones on another channel, he seems to climb more standing up on the tighter sections and only on the more prolonged uphill stuff do you see him sitting. In some ways I'm enjoying more the uphill than the downhill.

Having now tried standing I'm starting to use that method more and more, It gives great freedom to move the bike about and more freedom to keep peddling ( which is the one thing that regulalry stops me, concentration seems to stop the legs moving ). The one big difference is that you seem to pull up more on the bars giving greater traction and yet you seem to not suffer any sort of front wheel lift off as your body just seems to be more in the middle of COG.

Looking foward to the winter muddy trails, they are brilliant fun on Ebikes, technically challenging and yet its all done at a slow pace. Riding Ebikes on muddy trails is just so much fun compared to the old analogue slog.

I used to climb stood up on the pedals but losing rear wheel grip was always the biggest cause of any failure.......but I guess a lot depends on the natural fore to aft balance of different bikes. Having the dropper halfway slammed means for me that my riding position is not greatly different to standing on the pedals but keeps a bit more weight over the rear wheel. Whatever works for you on your bike is fine.

 

[Wilko58]

If speed is not relevant then why have an E at all? You could just tootle up the hill slower and get to the top in a leisurely time to bom down. In my mind E is all about getting to the top faster so you can bom down and get in more laps in the same amount of time.

Having an e-bike isn't all about speed, mine takes me places I'd never look at on an MTB, never mind attempting them. I'm not quite as old as the OP but like him I much prefer technical climbing rather than coming down.

 

[flyingjack]

After 30+ years away from mtn bikeing and being 20 lbs heavier (I've recently lost 30 and want to lose another 20) I have a throttle. When approaching a switch back then climb (I'm also much more conservative) or short steep climb I'll bump the throttle to help keep me in control. Love the throttle for that. BTW; just got my ass thoroughly kicked (two slow crashes and lost some blood) in loose rock switch backs due to probably going to slow. Blue runs in NW Arkansas are harder than Blue/blacks in Pacific Northwest (MT, ID etc). Love Arkansas.

 

[Stihldog]

Having an e-bike isn't all about speed, mine takes me places I'd never look at on an MTB, never mind attempting them. I'm not quite as old as the OP but like him I much prefer technical climbing rather than coming down.

I kinda agree. I love the technical climb. Every day, during the morning when it’s less busy. I prefer that over a descent.

Sure it’s slower, but the struggle is different and usually a crash is less severe. Several trails present their own challenges while climbing. Some are almost impossible. …for me at least. Clearing that obstacle (a root or rock wall) keeps me coming back. Clearing a climb trail can be an accomplishment. Wet trail conditions are even more of a challenge.

 

[Mikerb]

Having an e-bike isn't all about speed, mine takes me places I'd never look at on an MTB, never mind attempting them. I'm not quite as old as the OP but like him I much prefer technical climbing rather than coming down.

If you are referring to me as the OP you have me wrong I'm afraid. For me the essence of mtb is fast technical descents. Yes some climbs present their own challenges but for me climbs are mostly a PITA necessity. The reason for my original post was to promote a discussion about what promotes success in climbing....failure means having to do it again!! I.E. a double PITA

 

[Deleted member 19064]

My local trails are constant fast DH's, followed by immediate uphills (basically uphill and DH switchbacks) with steep transitions so I am constantly hammering my gears, moving my seat post and and changing power modes. It's quite a symphony of lever and button motions.

 

[Stihldog]

With the introduction of capable EMTB’s climbing a trail is possible. Climbing a gravel fire road can get kinda boring …unless it’s really steep. But now I can get to the top.

But after all that, gravity takes over. Your brakes better be good. I don’t think I’ve ever hit the speed assist limit (32kmh) on this mountain going up or down.

There will never be a lift here …which is good imo. Probably why more and more EMTB are starting to show up for all ages. %50 sometimes. I think the evolution began about 6 years ago …when I was being called a cheater.

 

[edruid]

Climbs are for drinking beer and eating pies which is why I stick to fire roads for them.

ha

 

[Damo888]

I ride the technical climbs generally black ones standing up and in turbo or EMTB+. I use the overrun on these modes to get me over rock ledges, big roots etc,etc where pedal strikes a strong possibility. I ride SPD pedals I can clip out no problem.

I come from Moto enduro and Moto trials background so I stand up quite abit. i think I only sit down on long switchback hill climbs.

 

[Diggy]

Shimano ep801 and SRAM X01 drive train. OP says he drops his dropper seat post and I’m not sure why. I want my legs almost fully extended on climbs. I maintain approx 90 rpm cadence and try to stay in the seat as much as I can. When I have to stand, I upshift at least two gears and put full power into the pedals. I try to anticipate when I need to stand and get going before the climb. I focus on the top of the hill or past it, and I focus on pedaling and maintaining traction.

 

[Plummet]

Having an e-bike isn't all about speed, mine takes me places I'd never look at on an MTB, never mind attempting them. I'm not quite as old as the OP but like him I much prefer technical climbing rather than coming down.

Oh, I enjoy a great technical climb on an e-bike, But the down is where my heart is.

With that said. If I only went the same speed as the mtb, i'd sell the e-bike and carry on mountain biking. The only reason a technical climb is more fun is because the more power and speed allows you to clean stuff you otherwise wouldn't.

So even though you say its not about speed.... it still is because you couldn't go that fast up a climb without the motor.

 

[Mikerb]

Shimano ep801 and SRAM X01 drive train. OP says he drops his dropper seat post and I’m not sure why. I want my legs almost fully extended on climbs. I maintain approx 90 rpm cadence and try to stay in the seat as much as I can. When I have to stand, I upshift at least two gears and put full power into the pedals. I try to anticipate when I need to stand and get going before the climb. I focus on the top of the hill or past it, and I focus on pedaling and maintaining traction.

Yes I drop the saddle about 50% to maintain weight on the back wheel for traction. My dropper is usually part slammed most of the time anyway only being at full height if I have to do any road sections or fireroads during a ride.

 

[Stihldog]

@Mikerb
I don’t mean to laugh, (been there done that) but you must admit some of those slo-mo crashes are kinda funny. Very minor injuries with a touch of embarrassment is usually okay. Happens all the time to some of us.

I’m known as that guy with magnetic peddles on this mountain. Usually a keen eye spots my unique platform followed by a series of questions. I don’t usually share my reason but rather the technique and components required. I guess it just depends on how I feel or who it is at the time.

Since clip-less became a thing I’ve always used them on my road bikes and eventually my gravel bikes. After my medical-miracle mountain biking became the best option for me. Fortunately B.C. Has many areas for mountain biking and Burke Mountain is my backyard playground. Too easy really.

Flats were my first attempt after I purchased my first EMTB. This was the answer …until my left foot kept coming off on any trail. Finding the pedal during a decent was almost impossible and usually meant I had to stop.

After a few weeks of that I had an idea . I sat at my coffee table and started drafting out ideas for a magnetic peddle or shoe. Within hours I had something sketched out on paper that might work for me. Brilliant! Amazing, revolutionary …I’m so smrt . Should I patent this idea? I could be rich. Then I decided to Google “magnetic peddles”.

I had a LOL moment. Magped and Avery Hustle had beat’n me to the punch…by years. So I ordered a pair to try out.

Un-friggen-believable. My ride instantly changed. No longer was my foot trapped. No longer did my foot fly off. It was a motion that I could handle with a bit of practice. I didn’t have a moon landing or Everest summit type of feeling …but pretty close imo.

I’ve let a few friends try out this peddle system on my street only. The panic in their eyes when they realize that they can’t release is kinda funny. I usually have to grab the bike and help.

 

[steve_sordy]

...............................................

I’ve let a few friends try out this peddle system on my street only. The panic in their eyes when they realize that they can’t release is kinda funny. I usually have to grab the bike and help.

It's the same for any clipped in system, surely?
My first attempt at riding clipped in was with Shimano SPDs. I set off OK, but rapidly discovered that I could only unclip easily if my foot was below the crank. The further above the crank the harder it got, until I just couldn't unclip. Comedy falls ensued aplenty.
I had promised myself that no matter how hard it seemed, and no matter how many times I fell off, I would stick with it for at least three months. Anyway, 18 months later, it took a three-day ride in the Yorkshire mountains* to finally make me realise that flats were the way to go. Every single rider on that outing was on flats, except me! They had zero problems; I was all over the place; the lesson was not lost.

Note* Not really mountains as such, they just felt like it. Hill starts so steep that I couldn't get going because the bike started rolling backwards before I could clip in. Very much NOT comedy falls because I couldn't unclip fast enough.

 

[Mikerb]

how did we get on to flats v clipless? Personally my shoe ( 5-10) and pedal ( Raceface Atlas) combo has never led to me slipping off the pedals or given any difficulty getting off the pedals when I want to. I did try clipless once just out of curiosity. Hated the shoes.....and the pedals!! The only downside of my pedal choice, is that the pedals are excellent at ripping skin....usually at ankle level at the back of the leg when I am negotiating a bridleway gate..............the solution is to walk ( whiilst still on the bike) like I have sh*t my pants or just started to learn how to ski...........ie doing a bambi