High Pivot vs non High Pivot eMtb

[emtbeast]

Hey guys,

I am interested into a high pivot emtb, specifically the new Druid E and have a few questions if someone can chime in with some useful real life experience.

I will off course try to get a hand on a test Druid before purchasing anyway but any kind of info is welcome, the best would be from those that have had a leg over it.

I am asking especially as I have some reservations before making a decision.
I recently rented a Rocky Mountain Instinct Powerplay SL and that bike was the worst of any bike I have ever ridden, like having a a manual coffee grinder between the feet.
It was this model exactly:

My questions for the Druid or a similar high pivot emtb:

Is there a huge difference in feel when pedaling a high pivot mtb/emtb in tour like terrain and at the end uphill of course also?

Is there a noticeable increase in resistance when pedaling without the motor assist and how often do you need to change the idler as it has only a few teeth it probably gets chewed up quite fast I would think?

Also is there a significant increase in chain loudness going over an additional sprocket?
TIA

 

[Plummet]

I can answer from an mtb perspective.
I have a high pivot Deviate Claymore and a mid pivot trek session DH bike.

Yes there is a couple of % inefficiency worse than 4 bar or vpp. It makes an impact on an mtb on a long climb. On an E... You would never know. The net result is you would get slightly less range on a high pivot than not. Again probably in the 2% range.

There's a little bit more noise but again minimal.

The biggest advantage of high pivot is that it sucks up square edge hits better.

However the worst feature of high pivot is that its harder to pull up and hold the front up because the rear center grows and you wheelie or manual. Combine that with the harder to pull up front on an E bike with forward weight bias of a big battery you have a bike that is going to be real difficult to hold the front up and manual off drops.

Ideally you can demo the bike before committing to it. Then you will know if you can work with the combo of heavy front end and extending back end......

 

[emtbeast]

I can answer from an mtb perspective.
I have a high pivot Deviate Claymore and a mid pivot trek session DH bike.

Yes there is a couple of % inefficiency worse than 4 bar or vpp. It makes an impact on an mtb on a long climb. On an E... You would never know. The net result is you would get slightly less range on a high pivot than not. Again probably in the 2% range.

There's a little bit more noise but again minimal.

The biggest advantage of high pivot is that it sucks up square edge hits better.

However the worst feature of high pivot is that its harder to pull up and hold the front up because the rear center grows and you wheelie or manual. Combine that with the harder to pull up front on an E bike with forward weight bias of a big battery you have a bike that is going to be real difficult to hold the front up and manual off drops.

Ideally you can demo the bike before committing to it. Then you will know if you can work with the combo of heavy front end and extending back end......

Hey thanks for your input, yes I will definitely try one out before I make a decision, also because of the mixed reports of Avinox motors rattling(there are suppose to be newer motor revisions that don't, but can't confirm).

I curently have the2022 Reign E, built to my liking it ride ready it get to 26,5kg and that bike has an even longer rear end(chainstay length) than my preferred size Druid and combined with a 800Wh battery and Alu frame it feels pretty much like u describe the High Pivot mtb, so the Druid shouldn't feel much different I guess and my riding style is more planted so it shouldn't bother me to much.
Although as the weight difference would also be a massive 4kg between the bikes, If I'd go for the Druid lite with the 600Wh, it would be even 5kg of difference to the Reign, I guess I would feel a massive difference in riding feel, even though it is a high pivot.

 

[Highland Wheels]

I can answer from an mtb perspective.
I have a high pivot Deviate Claymore and a mid pivot trek session DH bike.

Yes there is a couple of % inefficiency worse than 4 bar or vpp. It makes an impact on an mtb on a long climb. On an E... You would never know. The net result is you would get slightly less range on a high pivot than not. Again probably in the 2% range.

There's a little bit more noise but again minimal.

The biggest advantage of high pivot is that it sucks up square edge hits better.

However the worst feature of high pivot is that its harder to pull up and hold the front up because the rear center grows and you wheelie or manual. Combine that with the harder to pull up front on an E bike with forward weight bias of a big battery you have a bike that is going to be real difficult to hold the front up and manual off drops.

Ideally you can demo the bike before committing to it. Then you will know if you can work with the combo of heavy front end and extending back end......

Yeah came to say something similar I've got a Claymore as well and love how it rides. Suits my riding style perfectly

Got a Forbidden due soon, expecting it to ride very similar even though it's longer again on the rear but I still think it'll ride mint.

 

[Chairman]

Also hot one coming soon. Also like a planted feel but like to pop as required. My current bike is a modified cannondale moterra with 200 mm boxers up front and 180 rear travel. Most of the geo on the modified bike is very similar to the forbidden so it will a very interesting comparison when it finally arrives .exciting times ahead

 

[emtbeast]

Also hot one coming soon. Also like a planted feel but like to pop as required. My current bike is a modified cannondale moterra with 200 mm boxers up front and 180 rear travel. Most of the geo on the modified bike is very similar to the forbidden so it will a very interesting comparison when it finally arrives .exciting times ahead

Looking forward for your feedback

 

[Hoverp]

I can answer from an mtb perspective.
I have a high pivot Deviate Claymore and a mid pivot trek session DH bike.

Yes there is a couple of % inefficiency worse than 4 bar or vpp. It makes an impact on an mtb on a long climb. On an E... You would never know. The net result is you would get slightly less range on a high pivot than not. Again probably in the 2% range.

There's a little bit more noise but again minimal.

The biggest advantage of high pivot is that it sucks up square edge hits better.

However the worst feature of high pivot is that its harder to pull up and hold the front up because the rear center grows and you wheelie or manual. Combine that with the harder to pull up front on an E bike with forward weight bias of a big battery you have a bike that is going to be real difficult to hold the front up and manual off drops.

Ideally you can demo the bike before committing to it. Then you will know if you can work with the combo of heavy front end and extending back end......

Good point

 

[ntm95]

Yeah came to say something similar I've got a Claymore as well and love how it rides. Suits my riding style perfectly

Got a Forbidden due soon, expecting it to ride very similar even though it's longer again on the rear but I still think it'll ride mint.

It will ride better as far as cornering goes, once you adapt to the more upright, through the feet riding style that a 1.8 and under ratio likes. The claymore has a more "high pivot" feel in that it knocks down square edged stuff better, but is a bag of hammers in corners in comparison to any of the modern forbidden bikes.

As to the high pivot question, if there was a place for high pivots, e-bikes and dh bikes is it.
They can be harder to manual, but that is just a technique thing. They want to go fast, and reward you by carrying speed and making excellent traction.
They are not what you want for jibbing around a trail at 15km/hr like Keff Jendall-weed.

 

[elvendawn]

Is there a noticeable increase in resistance when pedaling without the motor assist and how often do you need to change the idler as it has only a few teeth it probably gets chewed up quite fast I would think?

Also is there a significant increase in chain loudness going over an additional sprocket?
TIA

Having had a Deviate Highlander and now a Druid Core, coming from a Spec Sumpjumper evo, I had no issues adapting to the HP style and much prefer it now, especially the Forbidden shortish reach, high stack. I don't manual around like Jeff, but both bikes seem fine popping off things and jumps - basically anything that requires preloading the bike and springing up doesn't feel much different, no issues with drops unlike was mentioned - it doesn't seem any more difficult to keep the front up for slow or fast drops.

Specifically for the E-Druids, the Avinox M1 has noticeable drag when it's off, I don't suggest you ride without assistance unless you are forced to, but while it's on it's one of the best options out there atm. You won't need to change the idler often and it can get noisy after a few rides without cleaning the chain, the Druid Core has been better than the Highlander for that.

 

[Chairman]

It will ride better as far as cornering goes, once you adapt to the more upright, through the feet riding style that a 1.8 and under ratio likes. The claymore has a more "high pivot" feel in that it knocks down square edged stuff better, but is a bag of hammers in corners in comparison to any of the modern forbidden bikes.

As to the high pivot question, if there was a place for high pivots, e-bikes and dh bikes is it.
They can be harder to manual, but that is just a technique thing. They want to go fast, and reward you by carrying speed and making excellent traction.
They are not what you want for jibbing around a trail at 15km/hr like Keff Jendall-weed.

Very well said. Couldn't have put it better myself. % agree

 

[Plummet]

It will ride better as far as cornering goes, once you adapt to the more upright, through the feet riding style that a 1.8 and under ratio likes. The claymore has a more "high pivot" feel in that it knocks down square edged stuff better, but is a bag of hammers in corners in comparison to any of the modern forbidden bikes.

As to the high pivot question, if there was a place for high pivots, e-bikes and dh bikes is it.
They can be harder to manual, but that is just a technique thing. They want to go fast, and reward you by carrying speed and making excellent traction.
They are not what you want for jibbing around a trail at 15km/hr like Keff Jendall-weed.

I'd beg to differ re high pivots not being for tight stuff. The lack of maneuverability of the forbidden bikes is a function of the stupid long chainstays that extend even further under load. For that reason I will never own a forbidden bike. Chainstay length is way past my optimal in my size even before the high pivot growth.

Claymore is playful and fun through the tight. I ride a lot of tight on that bike and thats one of the advantages for me. Shorter chainstay in the tight slow when the suspension isn't loaded hard, then fang a speed, you get the extending chainstay for good stability.

So..... it will depend on the design and geo as to whether its good in tight or not.

Personally my enthusiasm for high dropping. I actually prefer the vpp on the Crestline. I just feel more connected on the vpp. . The high pivot extending chainstay is great st absorbing square edged bumps but I dont like the vagueness of that extending chainstay manualling as wheelieing.

With that said I dont mind the mid pivot of the trek session I have. That's a good compromise between chain. Growth and feeling more connected.

I won't go high pivot on the next bike. Particularly on my mtb, I really dont like the loss of pedaling efficiency of adding that extra roller.

 

[Chairman]

I'd beg to differ re high pivots not being for tight stuff. The lack of maneuverability of the forbidden bikes is a function of the stupid long chainstays that extend even further under load. For that reason I will never own a forbidden bike. Chainstay length is way past my optimal in my size even before the high pivot growth.

Claymore is playful and fun through the tight. I ride a lot of tight on that bike and thats one of the advantages for me. Shorter chainstay in the tight slow when the suspension isn't loaded hard, then fang a speed, you get the extending chainstay for good stability.

So..... it will depend on the design and geo as to whether its good in tight or not.

Personally my enthusiasm for high dropping. I actually prefer the vpp on the Crestline. I just feel more connected on the vpp. . The high pivot extending chainstay is great st absorbing square edged bumps but I dont like the vagueness of that extending chainstay manualling as wheelieing.

With that said I dont mind the mid pivot of the trek session I have. That's a good compromise between chain. Growth and feeling more connected.

I won't go high pivot on the next bike. Particularly on my mtb, I really dont like the loss of pedaling efficiency of adding that extra roller.

Yes but the discussion was re ebikes so you've got yourself a bit off topic

 

[Plummet]

Yes but the discussion was re ebikes so you've got yourself a bit off topic

Not really, the same principles apply, other than the lack of efficiency being a non issue on a eb.

 

[Chairman]

Not really, the same principles apply, other than the lack of efficiency being a non issue on a eb.

The Forbidden core is the first HP bike I have tried and I have to say I am getting along with it just fine. I have had to tweak a couple of things with my riding style to accommodate the growing chainstay and for sure tight hairpin turns are it's weakest point but overall it's a big plus from me. Exceptional on the tech climbs and on the way down it just wants to go fast although there has certainly been a few times I could have used a bit more travel. Chassis still stays composed even when bottoming out

 

[Plummet]

The Forbidden core is the first HP bike I have tried and I have to say I am getting along with it just fine. I have had to tweak a couple of things with my riding style to accommodate the growing chainstay and for sure tight hairpin turns are it's weakest point but overall it's a big plus from me. Exceptional on the tech climbs and on the way down it just wants to go fast although there has certainly been a few times I could have used a bit more travel. Chassis still stays composed even when bottoming out

Yep, loooooong chainstays are really good at tech climbing as is the high pivot.

I had 455 chainstays on the voima. Great in a straight line chunk, great at speed, great up hill. Suck for wheelie and manuals and suck for tight stuff.

Forbidden. In my size is 456 + chain growth. That would be 466+ sagged. Holy hell that would exceptionally suck for my style of riding. My optimal chain stay length in high pivot 440, non high pivot 445.

Yeah, I dont buy the argument that you can get away with less travel on high pivot. 150mm of travel is still only 150mm of travel regardless.

 

[dotcodotuk]

Yeah, I dont buy the argument that you can get away with less travel on high pivot. 150mm of travel is still only 150mm of travel regardless.

Is the argument really about 'getting away' with less travel? I thought it was 'doing more with less' that always rung true for certain bikes.

For example, nobody I know that has ridden a Druid V2 would ever say that had 130mm at the rear if they didn't know and even then, you'd swear blind it was 150mm with the way it rides.

But go ride a Dreadnought and you'd not be fooled into thinking you were on a 200mm bike. Still rides like a 170/180, but works differently in the chunk from most non-HP bikes.

 

[Suns_PSD]

Yep, loooooong chainstays are really good at tech climbing as is the high pivot.

I had 455 chainstays on the voima. Great in a straight line chunk, great at speed, great up hill. Suck for wheelie and manuals and suck for tight stuff.

Forbidden. In my size is 456 + chain growth. That would be 466+ sagged. Holy hell that would exceptionally suck for my style of riding. My optimal chain stay length in high pivot 440, non high pivot 445.

Yeah, I dont buy the argument that you can get away with less travel on high pivot. 150mm of travel is still only 150mm of travel regardless.

It's important to note however that you run pretty short Reach for your size.

I mean the Forbidden would be an issue in any size, but your preferred 445 CS is close to my 450-455 (not doing the math) for my preferred Reach.

 

[Hob Nob]

I dont think you can isolate chainstay length as the single reason why a bike would suck in corners

IMO it’s more to do with unbalanced F&R centres than chainstays - longer actually centres you more on the bike & creates significantly more front end grip. The back of the bike doesn’t break traction anywhere near as early & creates a calmer cornering experience. People quite often mistake this with feeling sluggish in the corners, it’s just a more settled bike.

I currently have 2 high pivot e-bikes in the garage, a Druid Core &
new Sight. The Druid is more settled in the corners & generates more front end grip despite being nearly 40mm shorter in wheelbase, even with a chainstay that’s 16mm longer at static, it’s one of the best cornering bikes I’ve ridden. Living where I do, we have a load of awkward, steep, nadgery tech & the Druid is really good in that space.

If you a chopping between bikes, the ability to manual does take a little bit more effort, but if you are just riding the HP bike it’s a non issue, other than just requiring a bit more body English/pop to get it up.

 

[yagimax]

What difference do you find between the new Norco sight and the Druid Core? If you had to keep one which would it be?

 

[Zed. (Justin is short)]

What difference do you find between the new Norco sight and the Druid Core?

what I'm wondering also

 

[Hob Nob]

What difference do you find between the new Norco sight and the Druid Core? If you had to keep one which would it be?

It’s a good question, to which I don’t have a straight forward answer.

The Druid rides more like an HP bike than the Norco, but the trade off is it’s way less lively and playful (even with me running my Sight in new Range spec).

For a 160/150 bike the Druid is probably one of the fastest bikes I’ve ridden & by far the best Avinox equipped bike I’ve tried (that includes the new Unno & Crestline).

I’m not going to get into the intricacies of the Bosch Gen5 vs the Avinox, they both have their positives and negatives & I would be happy running either, with no clear winner IMO.

If you put a gun to my head, I’d probably pick the Druid. The S3 is a touch too small for me, but it works with a 50mm stem. I’m between the S3 & S4 with the Norco really, but the F&R balance on the Druid is better for me personally. If you are HP curious, and not part of the long chainstay crew, the Norco might be a better choice.

I don’t think you would regret either. The three bikes that have impressed me the most this year are the Forbidden, the Norco & the Yeti MTe.

 

[Highland Wheels]

Whereabouts do you ride @Hob Nob

 

[Hob Nob]

Whereabouts do you ride @Hob Nob

FoD / S.Wales mostly.

 

[Highland Wheels]

Nice to hear some good feed back in the Druid from someone who'll ride similar stuff Enduro stuff in S Wales as I do up here.

 

[yagimax]

Hob Nob, thanks for the quick reply. I'm currently on the last gen Norco Range (61 pound behemoth). Both the Norco and Forbidden don't have the ideal reach measurement but I do tend to size down for a quicker handling bike. I'm hoping Gravity MTB, a local bike shop and MTB training facility in Cumberland B.C. and 5 minute drive to Forbidden HQ will have a rental fleet this spring for me to try out.

 

[Chairman]

The Core is my first HP bike and the takeaway after the first 1000 ks and 35000 metres of descending is that this thing is seriously fast and very composed. For reference most of this is in Rotorua. Also likes the steeps and excels at technical climbs. Yeah very happy camper here

 

[yagimax]

The Core is my first HP bike and the takeaway after the first 1000 ks and 35000 metres of descending is that this thing is seriously fast and very composed. For reference most of this is in Rotorua. Also likes the steeps and excels at technical climbs. Yeah very happy camper here

Are you on the stock suspension? There seems to be an abundance of Core owners (on the Forbidden EMTB section)swapping the rear Vivid air shock for some reason or another.

 

[Chairman]

Are you on the stock suspension? There seems to be an abundance of Core owners (on the Forbidden EMTB section)swapping the rear Vivid air shock for some reason or another.

Yes I am. Pre purchase I had a plan to go coil just because but I am more than happy with Vivid. I did go with an Xtra reducer after a while but really I see no real reason to go coil at this stage as the Vivid is working really well for me. Plush enough but also super supportive. The whole setup is super confidence inspiring and at the same time holds speed really well as it skips across the gnar. Almost poppy. I think without a motor it would probably feel front heavy but with the aid of a bit of dji output you can lighten the front end at will. At this stage I have become a bit of a HP fan boy. My biggest concern had been the 150 travel having come from 185 but I am finding 150 to be doing the business just fine

 

[whitymon]

HP is not poppy at all, it suck out the life of any bike and it requires different timing to effectively do an efficient preload.

It can jump but it is way harder and not as fun, after a year on an 22kg HP, I would say that this is just not worth if you like to jump and pop everywhere. The more rear travel you will have the more sluggish it will be, on my end 170mm is just sucking everything good or bad.

If you like to bomb everything and wants a monster truck, yeah go for it, in the end I found the HP pretty boring. At the very least even if you have great technique, you will trade comfort vs pop/responsiveness/playfulness.

On an analog I really like it, but be careful with what you wish for.

 

[Plummet]

Its probably worth noting that mid pivot is a nice compromise between standard designs and high pivots. You get a good chunk of that nice square edge hit absorbtion, but not as much of the negatives of high pivot.