If it is the best, why doesn’t every bike have the Avinox system?

[Rockhopper70]

Apologies for the possible click-bait title, but I did start wondering when the Avinox motor system might start to become mainstream.

So far, it’s been on the Amflow which seems to be generally regarded as just a mule to get the system out to the market.

Any new bike being released utilising it seem to be niche, top end boutique prices and low availability. Or unknown Chinese generic carbon frames.

is the Avinox system prohibitvely expensive, and the Amflow was a loss leader, such that’s it’s always going to be top money bikes you see it on? Are they unable to make the quantities to suit mainstream brands? Is there pressure on the big players to keep Bosch etc happy?

I get that frame manufacturing being undertaken now, might have been planned pre Avinox, so do we think all the major manufacturers are hurriedly revising their frame designs for 2026 to incorporate the Avinox?

 

[Fangs2k]

All pretty good questions/musings to be fair, I’m sure a few of us are wondering the same thing.

There have been a lot of Avinox bikes announced at the big industry shows so far this year, but no idea about pricing or availability etc.

The smaller boutique brands have seized an opportunity here, they can re-design and get whoever builds their frames to batch manufacture quickly however many it is they’ve got motor systems to fit I suppose.

I’m guessing though, I don’t work in the industry, and who knows what conversations are going on with the ‘big brands’ around motor systems for 2026 bikes over and above those already announced.

I think it will be a while until we see Avinox in lower priced bikes but I suppose time will tell.

‘Best’ is also a bit subjective, and there’s the rest of the bike to consider. Best for one person might not be best for another, others may prioritise lower cost or whatever the local bike shop sells and supports. The latter is my priority and whilst my e-bikes have been pretty reliable over the years, I want the support quickly if I do need it.

Bring ‘em on though I say, the more choice the better.

 

[Plyphon]

A huge number of factors:

• R&D / production cycles. It takes time to design, test and manufacture frames at scale. DJI's motor has only been available in the last year or so. Smaller companies can move faster at the cost of expense to the consumer, but if Canyon etc want to pump out tens of thousands of bikes at a low price point they need to get the unit economics down which means locking in production / factory time years ahead.
• Volume pricing. I've no idea how the bike industry works, but it's a good guess that Bosch etc do volume deals over time. Eg, buy 50,000 motors over 5 years at $XX per motor. They will agree these volume deals potentially even before the motor is released. Many manufacturers will be working through their existing motor supplier agreements.
• Potentially even rebate agreements - in certain sectors if you take X amount of stock, sell Y within a certain timeframe, you get a monetary rebate from the manufacturer for hitting a sales target. These can be fruitful agreements that benefits all parties - moving stock at volume is the name of the game for big manufacturers.
• Price. We don't know behind the scenes, but Bosch could be panicking and selling their existing motors at a very large discount to maintain presence on bikes. They might be eating profit today to stay relevant tomorrow. DJI no doubt are doing to same to gain market share, but agreements will be made across the board.
• Market perception - large manufacturers are rightly cautious of a new player. Using Bosch etc comes with brand recognition of quality. They are no doubt waiting for the dust to settle a bit to see where DJI ends up from a brand perspective PoV. Perhaps some are kicking themselves as the reception has been stellar so far.
• Stock - perhaps DJI can't commit to the volumes the big players are after right now as they are scaling their efforts and serving Amflow firstly.

But rest assured, whatever the reason, it'll be about money and selling bikes.

 

[Ndanger]

Within a companies product range I wonder where the actual margins are made. Doing well in competition gives the brand recognition but is it the ultra high end bikes that they make money on (what percentage of buyers demand performance) or is it the general biking crowd that decide that they want an eBike and choose based on name recognition. I would assume that average bikes sold to average rider could be a bigger market with more margins.

 

[Power1tobe]

Within a companies product range I wonder where the actual margins are made. Doing well in competition gives the brand recognition but is it the ultra high end bikes that they make money on (what percentage of buyers demand performance) or is it the general biking crowd that decide that they want an eBike and choose based on name recognition. I would assume that average bikes sold to average rider could be a bigger market with more margins.

Well if your following what's going on with DJI & their Drones in the US, this maybe their backup plan.

 

[volts]

Don't worry you will see mainstream bikes with avinox soon enough.
It seems to me that instead of working with brands from the start, dji released amflow.
It could be because they are in a much better position to negotiate prices when there is demand from riders rather than if they are new and unproven entering the market, trying to negotiate with the brands.
That is my guess.

 

[Rockhopper70]

Well if your following what's going on with DJI & their Drones in the US, this maybe their backup plan.

I’m not, would you care to summarise?

 

[Fangs2k]

But rest assured, whatever the reason, it'll be about money and selling bikes.

This is the pertinent point, ‘turnover is vanity, profit is sanity’, selling loads of bikes but at a loss is worse than selling a few at even a marginal profit.

No idea what the margins are of course, who does outside of the manufacturers?

 

[Plummet]

A huge number of factors:

• R&D / production cycles. It takes time to design, test and manufacture frames at scale. DJI's motor has only been available in the last year or so. Smaller companies can move faster at the cost of expense to the consumer, but if Canyon etc want to pump out tens of thousands of bikes at a low price point they need to get the unit economics down which means locking in production / factory time years ahead.
• Volume pricing. I've no idea how the bike industry works, but it's a good guess that Bosch etc do volume deals over time. Eg, buy 50,000 motors over 5 years at $XX per motor. They will agree these volume deals potentially even before the motor is released. Many manufacturers will be working through their existing motor supplier agreements.
• Potentially even rebate agreements - in certain sectors if you take X amount of stock, sell Y within a certain timeframe, you get a monetary rebate from the manufacturer for hitting a sales target. These can be fruitful agreements that benefits all parties - moving stock at volume is the name of the game for big manufacturers.
• Price. We don't know behind the scenes, but Bosch could be panicking and selling their existing motors at a very large discount to maintain presence on bikes. They might be eating profit today to stay relevant tomorrow. DJI no doubt are doing to same to gain market share, but agreements will be made across the board.
• Market perception - large manufacturers are rightly cautious of a new player. Using Bosch etc comes with brand recognition of quality. They are no doubt waiting for the dust to settle a bit to see where DJI ends up from a brand perspective PoV. Perhaps some are kicking themselves as the reception has been stellar so far.
• Stock - perhaps DJI can't commit to the volumes the big players are after right now as they are scaling their efforts and serving Amflow firstly.

But rest assured, whatever the reason, it'll be about money and selling bikes.

Plyphon nails it.

To add to this high volume Jigs are expensive. $50k per size per frame design. That is a significant re-tooling cost.
Low volume guys like Unno and Crestline will be using a lot cheaper lower volume jigs that can replaced at a lower cost.
The can pivot and adapt faster. Plus they charge a premium for their product for that service.

Currently DJI might have a light high power solution with good integration and skinny batteries but they do not yet offer the complete package that large manufacturers are looking for.

There is not world wide distributors appointed providing back up support in all countries represented.
That will come, but its not here yet. Any company with world wide reach cannot use DJI as there will be unsupported parts of the world.

DJI only offer one motor and two battery options currently. No 400wh battery, no mid mid power offering.
Though it does blur the lines between mid and high power, DJI cannot provide the lightest weight package that the mid power guys are looking for.

Plus the jury is still out for the long term user testing. How long does a dji last before it dies? 5000km, 10000km?
They haven't been out long enough to understand the longevity of the motors. Imagine the reputational damage if you put 100 000 motors into service and 2 years later they all shit themselves?

For the high volume guys the risk is a lot higher because the volume is a lot higher. The save bet is shimano or bosch for now.

 

[JP-NZ]

Plus the jury is still out for the long term user testing. How long does a dji last before it dies? 5000km, 10000km?
They haven't been out long enough to understand the longevity of the motors. Imagine the reputational damage if you put 100 000 motors into service and 2 years later they all shit themselves?

*looks at Fazua*

 

[Polar]

I'm sure DJI have done their research in all aspects and know exactly what they're doing with Avinox.
They have also probably had a little chat with BYD.

 

[steve_sordy]

I have a photographer friend who has a drone with DJI motors on it. He told me that some of the DJI motors on the larger drones are really quite large. So DJI have a lot of experience of making "large" motors. The motors on the Amflow are quite probably larger than even the largest DJI drones (I say probably because I don't know). But the key thing is that DJI are aware of the design principes that make a high power-to-weight ratio motor work well and reliably so.

I agree with @Plummet 's point about proven longevity, so I won't be buying any bike with a DJI motor on it until at least two years have passed from launch. And preferably after their "type 2" has been launched.

There is precedent for this. Bosch's first e-bike motors were based upon a truck windscreen wiper motor, of which they had many years of experience. Which is why the output ring was a 15t, because the output speed was too high for anything bigger. OK, it wasn't perfect, but they got into the market and worked from there, now look at them! Who knows where DJI will be after a similar time in the market?

 

[Power1tobe]

I’m not, would you care to summarise?

DJI is looking at a possible ban of all drone / wireless products in the US in OCT. That said they have already limited their sales to the US (they made this move), and it seems they have focused a lot more energy on this motor system. A quick google search will give you a ton of info.

 

[zizajaun]

I'm not sure I agree with your premise. There are over a dozen bikes with the Avinox, and no doubt many more are coming. It's a new motor so naturally there will be some delay as companies switch their manufacturing processes/contracts, but it's only been out a year.

 

[Rockhopper70]

I'm not sure I agree with your premise. There are over a dozen bikes with the Avinox, and no doubt many more are coming. It's a new motor so naturally there will be some delay as companies switch their manufacturing processes/contracts, but it's only been out a year.

Genuinely, not being flippant, but what are the dozen bikes you can order and buy right now with the Avinox?

 

[zizajaun]

Genuinely, not being flippant, but what are the dozen bikes you can order and buy right now with the Avinox?

That many have been announced. Several are already on sale or available for preorder (e.g. Amflow, Teewing, Crestline, Forbidden, Unno) and several more will become available over the coming months (e.g. Megamo, Velduro, Crussis, Steppenwolf, Commencal, Orange). I, too, am frustrated that more models weren't available sooner, but I'm not sure a year or so between the motor being announced (July 2024) and rollout by other brands is that long in the scheme of things.

 

[Ndanger]

The time and cost to bring a new design to market is a big deal. It is so easy to be behind the curve with bike production and consumer demand. You almost have to have a crystal ball to get it right. And even if you get it right it can be a short success as the next trend appears. Many of the recently introduced bikes I am seeing suddenly have a legacy look as the sleeker designs with the smaller components are showing up.

My next question is, will the V2 Dji motor throw a wrench into the works if and when it becomes available. Something tells me that the day I commit to V1 will be the day V2 is announced

 

[mike_kelly]

What makes a bike the "best".
Best performance,
best sales centers,
best available stock.
Best available service,
best available repair parts?
Fastest time to repair?
Best trail bike
Best Enduro bike
Best bike with a 750w or under motor?

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

have a photographer friend who has a drone with DJI motors on it. He told me that some of the DJI motors on the larger drones are really quite large.

Their latest one has 100kg payload.

DJI AGRAS T100 - Big Drone, Big Jobs. - DJI

The T100 Agricultural Drone, a groundbreaking creation twelve years in the making, boasts a maximum payload of 100 kg. Its operational efficiency is doubled, supporting multiple application scenarios, including spraying, spreading, and lifting tasks. Featuring industry-leading safety systems and...

ag.dji.com

 

[Rockhopper70]

That many have been announced. Several are already on sale or available for preorder (e.g. Amflow, Teewing, Crestline, Forbidden, Unno) and several more will become available over the coming months (e.g. Megamo, Velduro, Crussis, Steppenwolf, Commencal, Orange). I, too, am frustrated that more models weren't available sooner, but I'm not sure a year or so between the motor being announced (July 2024) and rollout by other brands is that long in the scheme of things.

Realistically, how many of those could you buy, or would you but with your own money? Aside from the unknown in the UK brands mentioned, Forbidden and Unno are knocking on for £10K. Hence boutique kit.

Commencal is next spring. Orange hasn’t even confirmed they are running it and all they have presented is a hastily looking prototype.

 

[Rockhopper70]

What makes a bike the "best".
Best performance,
best sales centers,
best available stock.
Best available service,
best available repair parts?
Fastest time to repair?
Best trail bike
Best Enduro bike
Best bike with a 750w or under motor?

I’m not referring to the best bike, more so the best motor system.

 

[Plummet]

Something tells me that the day I commit to V1 will be the day V2 is announced

That is always the way with technology. 5 minutes later something. Better comes out.

You just need to draw a line in the sand and buy something and be done with.

 

[Brent8275]

Commencal is interesting to me. The SX 800 (Bosch) is available in NZ from November, and now the same bike with the avinox is available from next April.

I doubt the Bosch will sell very well as the avinox is already available for pre order.

After starting as a Shimano house, then moving everything to Bosch, they're now going with DJI.

Do we expect to see more going this way in the future? I think we will

 

[Rockhopper70]

Commencal is interesting to me. The SX 800 (Bosch) is available in NZ from November, and now the same bike with the avinox is available from next April.

I doubt the Bosch will sell very well as the avinox is already available for pre order.

After starting as a Shimano house, then moving everything to Bosch, they're now going with DJI.

Do we expect to see more going this way in the future? I think we will

Do you know the price difference between the two bikes?

 

[zizajaun]

Realistically, how many of those could you buy, or would you but with your own money? Aside from the unknown in the UK brands mentioned, Forbidden and Unno are knocking on for £10K. Hence boutique kit.

Commencal is next spring. Orange hasn’t even confirmed they are running it and all they have presented is a hastily looking prototype.

Base models are £7600 and £8100. But no, I won't be buying them because I'm a PhD student and don't have that much spare cash. If I had a steady income I might. If I lived in NZ I'd be tempted by the Velduro Rogue frameset (<£4k) and if I lived in the US (or was likely to visit soon) I'd be tempted by the Ari Timp Peak frameset with Bosch motor (about £4k). I'm interested to see how much the Rogue will cost international buyers.

In the meantime, I've bought a Geometron G1 and bolted on a Bikee Lightest motor, which I might swap for a gen2 CYC Photon at some point.

 

[mike_kelly]

I’m not referring to the best bike, more so the best motor system.

That is why I ride Bafang. I know I can get parts and I can fix it myself. These bikes are too expensive for me to be swapping bikes every year. So my "best" has to last and be maintainable by me.

 

[JP-NZ]

Do you know the price difference between the two bikes?

They are about 33% more in NZ

 

[Brent8275]

They are about 33% more in NZ

??? Both signature models are $16.5k.

However the DJI comes with wireless shifting and the new XT brakes.

There is a podium fork version of the DJI for an extra $3k which gets XO shifting.

 

[Plummet]

Commencal is interesting to me. The SX 800 (Bosch) is available in NZ from November, and now the same bike with the avinox is available from next April.

I doubt the Bosch will sell very well as the avinox is already available for pre order.

After starting as a Shimano house, then moving everything to Bosch, they're now going with DJI.

Do we expect to see more going this way in the future? I think we will

That is interesting. I guess thats the advantage of building alloy frames. It's far more cost effective for jigging that carbon so its easier to offer multiple offerings.

 

[Ndanger]

That is interesting. I guess thats the advantage of building alloy frames. It's far more cost effective for jigging that carbon so its easier to offer multiple offerings.

Good point, much of the building process of a metal frame could be automated. For carbon fiber handle bar yes but something as complex as a molded carbon frame, not so much. The process requires skill and labor.