Power Struggle: Who Controls the Future of E‑MTB?

[RustyIron]

DJI — yes, the drone company — dropped a 1000-watt, 120Nm eMTB system with sleek integration, fast charging, and power to burn. The Avinox system didn’t just raise eyebrows; it kicked the industry’s front door in.

One thing I've learned from participating in this forum is that people around the world have VASTLY different ideas of what a mountain bike is for. I think the people who are most vocal about the need for maximized power and unlimited speed are the folks who ride roads, bridle trails, and foot paths. Some of us don't do that., and we have different expectations from a mountain bike. I'm beginning to think we're in the minority.

When the trails become hyper steep and technical, there reaches a point where more power becomes detrimental to control of the bike. Maybe some of the "expert" riders will disagree... but I don't think so.

 

[Astro66]

Oh hell no! Thats weak. And not here. Most derestrict the speed cap of 32 kph anyway

I agree. But it keeps the Nanny State Lobby out of the politician's ears. So I have motorised access to areas I never thought I'd have access to. I never thought I'd see motorised transport using trails in the Oldest National Park in Australia. Go back 20 years and you weren't even allowed to ride a bicycle.

Now the National Parks are getting Professional Trail Builders in to build downhill courses, with firetrail uphill returns. So basically an EMTB Nirvana. I put this down to the 25kph limit. National Parks are accepting of the EMTBs whilst they are limited to 25kph. But even raising the limit to 32kph. I am certain that would trigger exclusion of EBikes, and only allow Analogue MTBs. The National Parks Department is super risk averse.

 

[Chairman]

I agree. But it keeps the Nanny State Lobby out of the politician's ears. So I have motorised access to areas I never thought I'd have access to. I never thought I'd see motorised transport using trails in the Oldest National Park in Australia. Go back 20 years and you weren't even allowed to ride a bicycle.

Now the National Parks are getting Professional Trail Builders in to build downhill courses, with firetrail uphill returns. So basically an EMTB Nirvana. I put this down to the 25kph limit. National Parks are accepting of the EMTBs whilst they are limited to 25kph. But even raising the limit to 32kph. I am certain that would trigger exclusion of EBikes, and only allow Analogue MTBs. The National Parks Department is super risk averse.

Thank God I live in NZ

 

[Fangs2k]

Now the National Parks are getting Professional Trail Builders in to build downhill courses, with firetrail uphill returns. So basically an EMTB Nirvana.

Sounds great, but not my EMTB Nirvana, and that’s the rub here isn’t it, not everybody uses an EMTB the same way.

I’ve ridden the bike parks here in the UK and in Europe, good fun in many respects, but only a tiny part of how people use e-bikes, a niche within a niche almost.

My EMTB Nirvana is natural trails, or endless forest singletrack, most of my local routes are stitched together using a mix of roads, bridleways, canal tow paths, RUPPs and permissive cycle trails. All perfectly rideable with the current assist limit, all public spaces and all legitimately used by other people.

When I’m out and about, like most of you I’m sure, I’m friendly and respectful of walkers/horse riders etc, many of whom visibly tense when they see me riding towards them due to the amount of illegal MX’ers, quad bikes and even 4x4s if they’ve managed to find a way around the tank traps the authorities have put up to try and stop them wrecking the trails.

Many people probably put me in the same boat, being on an e-bike, and that’s a shame. It highlights that we occupy a really weird space with regard to trail access, and we need to be careful with it.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

In an interesting update, as of today, Avinox app has been updated, giving up to 1000w in Turbo

Previously turbo gave 850w max, and the 30 seconds of Boost mode providing 1000w.

 

[Paul Mac]

looks like DJI are taking the threat seriously

 

[Astro66]

That's so funny. Well that's a clear statement of intent from DJI.

 

[Mikerb]

....or it may be a little more concerning in terms of impact!

Competition between brands in any market is normal and the options are usually either price leadership, service, or functionality. Here with the possible exception of service we have all 3.

It is worth considering how that is achieved and what the ramifications are for the emtb industry as a whole. The same global trade tactics have been/ are being, used in the rag trade, mobile phone market and more recently the EV car market.

 

[Citylad77]

Absolultly

re

That's so funny. Well that's a clear statement of intent from DJI.

Lol
Bring it on , brilliant. Looks like Spec and the others will have to go back running to teacher in fits of tears..

“ his motor is lighter and a lot more powerful than mine”…

Never mind at least Spec have given us a swat box..

 

[kobb]

And the last update on my bike with bosch motor was that I can register more bikes on my flow app.
Take that Dji.

 

[retrograde]

In my county, mtb riders have worked for decades to co-exist with other trail users (e.g., hikers, equestrians). Trail access isn't complete as not all trails are open to emtbs but for the most part, there is a precarious balance among users. In the meantime, all over California there have been incidents of reckless riding of ebikes on the streets with calls for tighter age restrictions, licensing, insurance, fines for violations, etc.

Given the above context and the possibility for greater emtb torque/acceleration in the future, I'd anticipate more trail usage issues that will re-ignite conflict among trail users and attract the attention of land use managers.

A punchy 150 nm emtb that can be accelerated around the trails in an instant (traction aside) won't do me any good if I have nowhere to ride it.

 

[Amber Valley Guy]

I don't really care that much about peak torque, power,speed as long as they're within the legal limits for that country/state/province or wherever.
I've seen lots of Amflows around here (Derbys/Peak District) and they don't seem a problem (other than they climb way faster than me), so I can't see the fuss.
What I can see is the dickheads in the towns and cities riding around on Sur Rons (seen one yesterday, Friday, going 30mph+ past a bloody junior school) with the usual face mask bollox on. It's these dickheads and the delivery riders on cobbled together ebikes with rim brakes and dodgy battery mounts, that brings a bad name to ebikes not e-mtbs. But in the eyes of the public they see the same thing. The eMTB and legit ebike manufacturers need to work with plod and the authorities to clamp down on these dickheads imo.

 

[JohnR]

In my county, mtb riders have worked for decades to co-exist with other trail users (e.g., hikers, equestrians). Trail access isn't complete as not all trails are open to emtbs but for the most part, there is a precarious balance among users. In the meantime, all over California there have been incidents of reckless riding of ebikes on the streets with calls for tighter age restrictions, licensing, insurance, fines for violations, etc.

Given the above context and the possibility for greater emtb torque/acceleration in the future, I'd anticipate more trail usage issues that will re-ignite conflict among trail users and attract the attention of land use managers.

A punchy 150 nm emtb that can be accelerated around the trails in an instant (traction aside) won't do me any good if I have nowhere to ride it.

Spot on!

I've had regular communication with land managers, regulators and law enforcement. Access is fragile. For decades Mountain bikers have volunteered to maintain trails. They are in attendance at land management and regulatory meetings. They opposed EMTBs, years ago. In time we have been able to sway some of them to our side.

Every time I read rants about more powerful bikes, I wonder just how involved those riders are at the regulatory level. Go to a meeting and try to make an argument. Sometimes it's akin to beating a puppy. A lot of older people with their grandchildren, sharing their concerns about safety. Mountain bikers that volunteer to do much of the physical work, sharing their concerns. Equestrians, who are generally seen as noble, share their concerns. I even publicly debated the guy who wrote the state law for a state representative, legalizing ebikes. He is pro ebikes, but not on any shared use trails. I don't think many ebike riders have a clue just how hard it was to win access. Keeping that access is just as hard.

I saw it posted earlier that some brands are only looking out for their own interests and this looks like protectionism. As everyone, every state, every business and every country does. I'll admit it, I want to keep and protect what I have. All that said, I do like what I know of about the DJI system. I need to see how they hold up with time. Power limits will be an issue and I haven't had any issues climbing hills with the typical 250w <750w max ebike.

 

[ari]

Doesn't matter how much power there is, the 25km limit is the regulator/sheriff etc , hitting that 25km brickwall makes all [legal] ebikes the slowest bikes out there , even a 13 year old bmx rider will smash past at 40kmph , good mtb rider at60kmph , where the embt rider is huffing and buffing at 26.5kmph ,desperately waiting for a hill to climb to catch up . So EMBTs are basically Trials bikes[meant to be ridden terrain such as the Scottis Six Day Trial, anywhere else they struggle]

 

[Amber Valley Guy]

Doesn't matter how much power there is, the 25km limit is the regulator/sheriff etc , hitting that 25km brickwall makes all [legal] ebikes the slowest bikes out there , even a 13 year old bmx rider will smash past at 40kmph , good mtb rider at60kmph , where the embt rider is huffing and buffing at 26.5kmph ,desperately waiting for a hill to climb to catch up . So EMBTs are basically Trials bikes[meant to be ridden terrain such as the Scottis Six Day Trial, anywhere else they struggle]

Have you been drinking? Where have you ever been blown into the weeds by a MTB doing 60kmh/37mph ( or a kid doing 40kmh/25mph) on a flat??? And if you can't go faster than 15.5mph DOWNHILL, then try some other sport. Your post makes zero sense.

 

[Downhillr]

....
E-bikes aren’t coming — they’re already here. In 2023, over 5.1 million of them were sold across Europe, with traditional bikes only just ahead at 6.6 million. In Germany, e-bikes actually overtook analogue bikes for the first time, grabbing more than half the market. This isn’t a trend anymore — it’s a takeover. And it’s transforming everything: how we ride, how bikes are built, and what the industry believes a bike should be.

Then came the curveball.

DJI — yes, the drone company — dropped a 1000-watt, 120Nm eMTB system with sleek integration, fast charging, and power to burn. The Avinox system didn’t just raise eyebrows; it kicked the industry’s front door in. Overnight, the usual suspects — Bosch, Shimano, Specialized — found themselves playing defence. Soon after, the eMTB elite huddled in a Think Tank and proposed something unthinkable just a year earlier: a self-imposed cap on motor output.

750 watts. That’s the new line in the dirt.

Is this really about protecting trails and riding responsibly? Or is it a well-dressed panic move from brands caught flat-footed by an outsider with better tech? In this piece, we dig into what the DJI Avinox launch really triggered — and why older high-powered motors like the Haibike Flyon and Sachs RS never got the same reaction.

Discussion thread for full article:

Power Struggle: Who Controls the Future of E‑MTB?

eBikes aren’t coming. They’re already here. In 2023, over 5.1 million of them were sold across Europe, with traditional bikes only just ahead at 6.6 million. In Germany, ebikes actually overtook analogue bikes for the first time, grabbing more...

www.emtbforums.com

It seems to me that in US the existing 750 limit is unlikely to be raised (due to reality of our cumbersome legislative & regulatory process), certainly not quickly and until after that
process completes. Motor manufacturers (and mtb riders) could be better served making denser, lighter power packs with more efficient and responsive motors. At some point more power is not going to help you get up a gnarly, techy climb nor lend advantage on your already speed limited assist downhill runs whereas the lighter, better balanced, more responsive bike would benefit both efforts.

 

[Downhillr]

Have you been drinking? Where have you ever been blown into the weeds by a MTB doing 60kmh/37mph ( or a kid doing 40kmh/25mph) on a flat??? And if you can't go faster than 15.5mph DOWNHILL, then try some other sport. Your post makes zero sense.

Lol, well you voiced what I was thinking but in a blunter (and funnier) manner!

 

[flash]

This is just the old motor manufacturers and a few *influencers* who didn’t get a free bike whinging because they lost market share. Bosch sure played the power game well until DJI released. Specialized have 111nM on the sWorks. SHitmano are especially pissed because their horrible service and absolute complacency has finally bit them in the arse.

1. The issue, if any, is derestriction. If you can’t derestrict an eMTB then there’s no longer an issue. But look at how many threads here mention it. People like dereistricting their bikes. That’s the trail access issue in the US. Not power. Does any one actually think a 100W bike limited to 25kmh is an issue compared to a 500W bike that assists to 50kmh?
2. Regulations are area/country specific and the responsibility of the local authorities, not bike companies. NZ has more liberal laws than the US, than Europe etc. You’ll note the 28mph Levo limit won’t be on bikes in the EU from Specialized. It’s up to the countries to regulate and enforce. Not the bike companies. Why are they making concencus on power and not max assist speed. Because power numbers sell bikes.
3. The nominal 250W power thing is a myth. It’s about thermal management and reliability, not speed or power output. And it’s not 250W in many countries. In NSW where I live it’s 500W and the EU is considering a raise to 500W this year. There are no max output regulations. Just speed based ones. ANyone quoting power figures a limits is either misinformed or lying to you.
4. MTB’s are a tiny part of the eBike world. You think Bosch/Shitmano and Yamaha(browse) are worried about eMTB’s? They’re worried that Amflow are going to make a commuter bike.
5. Does anyone think that the new Specialized power numbers are anything except a response to DJI? Or the upcoming Bosch upgrade? DJI have forced to marke forward. With more development coming to compete.
6. Modern formula 1 is boring as bat shit. You’re first at turn 1 you win. Should we just stop MTB innovation now? That’ll sell a bunch of bikes in 2026….
7. Whether the limit is 25 or 32 you’re still mostly quicker going down than up.

The EURO/Japanese motor manufacturers did this to themselves. They’re shitting themselves that their complacency and program of incremental upgrades for the last 5 years has been thrown out by the upstart.They’ve been treating riders with contempt for years. But that’s changed and they don’t like it. There’s only enough room for a few major players in the eBike market and they’re now worried they’ll be relegated to bit players. Good. Frankly if Shimano is driven out of the motor market it’d be a good thing.

If the old manufacturers wanted to do some good and really cared they’d lobby to standardise speed restrictions world wide and make it impossible to derestrict their motors. But that ain’t going to happen is it.

Gordon

 

[Bengy22]

The newer 21700 cells that have just recently came out have an output of 5.3ahr.
Previous best cell only produced 5ahr.

A little bit off topic but we have had 21700's with over 5ah for years now, for one that comes to mind is the LG M58 / M58T which was available for hobbits almost 3 years ago. Which is advertised as a 5.8ah cell, and is almost certainly what DJI using in their avinox batteries (or a very similar cell) as it matches right up with the 20wh/ cell (the m58t has a 20wh minimum rating). Since then though we have seen 6ah cells and just recently vapcell a known re-wrapper of cells started selling the "F63", which they claim 6.25Ah or 23.125WH each. Pretty impressive still when you consider if Dji found the original supplier and got them in the avinox the 800WH battery would be 925WH. And that's tech us hobbyists have available today which is almost certainly behind, molicel has mentioned a 7ah in the works in some internal docs.

 

[Bengy22]

It seems to me that in US the existing 750 limit is unlikely to be raised (due to reality of our cumbersome legislative & regulatory process), certainly not quickly and until after that
process completes.

Well that depends on where you are in the US though, not every state decided to go the California route and limit peak power to 750w (which just happened this year so I agree I don't see them going back anytime soon). Not to hate on Rob but the article is wrong on the laws in the US especially around the federal limit. The federal code which a lot of states site for there own laws says "with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts", while not clear on if it means peak or rated I would say most people refer to their motor from a rated perspective. And it's quite clear most states and manufactures also took this as rated.

I personally was already looking into this when I saw this being discussed in the Avinox thread, but I decided to check every states laws to see exactly where the current 1000w Avinox would be illegal to ride. I do want to say this isn't legal advice to anyone and this only applies at a state level not locally which can be different. And I also would encourage anyone concerned about the legal power in there area to check themselves (and be sure to check official gov sites, I found a lot of wrong information on other sources that contradicted). And what I found is out of all 50 states, 6 it would be illegal in due to 750w peak limits imposed. California, Indiana, Nebraska, Nevada, Oklahoma, Washington. Most states just used the same federal wording or some variation basically stating a motor of less than 750w (and to me it also again was clear most meant rated, because then one paragraph down some would say what's legal for say a moped and state peak power ex: 3000w peak max showing they know the difference). While some did actually state rated power of 750w, and a few others did mention peak power but 1000w (Georgia, Minnesota, Oregon, Vermont).

Of course where this gets really interesting is the local level where it can be a huge mess, and I've got no clue of Dji or any other ebike manufacture / retailer can handle that. Personally if it was up to me I say Dji should ship the bikes over following federal law, then have a setting to manually input and adjust the max peak power allowing the customer to restrict to legal limits for the area they are riding in.

 

[ari]

Have you been drinking? Where have you ever been blown into the weeds by a MTB doing 60kmh/37mph ( or a kid doing 40kmh/25mph) on a flat??? And if you can't go faster than 15.5mph DOWNHILL, then try some other sport. Your post makes zero sense.

You obviously dont think before you post[you toxic abuser] . I race and sometimes cross train on the local bmx track , so that makes your comment just infantile.....please leave this forum.

 

[Downhillr]

This is just the old motor manufacturers and a few *influencers* who didn’t get a free bike whinging because they lost market share. Bosch sure played the power game well until DJI released. Specialized have 111nM on the sWorks. SHitmano are especially pissed because their horrible service and absolute complacency has finally bit them in the arse.

1. The issue, if any, is derestriction. If you can’t derestrict an eMTB then there’s no longer an issue. But look at how many threads here mention it. People like dereistricting their bikes. That’s the trail access issue in the US. Not power. Does any one actually think a 100W bike limited to 25kmh is an issue compared to a 500W bike that assists to 50kmh?
2. Regulations are area/country specific and the responsibility of the local authorities, not bike companies. NZ has more liberal laws than the US, than Europe etc. You’ll note the 28mph Levo limit won’t be on bikes in the EU from Specialized. It’s up to the countries to regulate and enforce. Not the bike companies. Why are they making concencus on power and not max assist speed. Because power numbers sell bikes.
3. The nominal 250W power thing is a myth. It’s about thermal management and reliability, not speed or power output. And it’s not 250W in many countries. In NSW where I live it’s 500W and the EU is considering a raise to 500W this year. There are no max output regulations. Just speed based ones. ANyone quoting power figures a limits is either misinformed or lying to you.
4. MTB’s are a tiny part of the eBike world. You think Bosch/Shitmano and Yamaha(browse) are worried about eMTB’s? They’re worried that Amflow are going to make a commuter bike.
5. Does anyone think that the new Specialized power numbers are anything except a response to DJI? Or the upcoming Bosch upgrade? DJI have forced to marke forward. With more development coming to compete.
6. Modern formula 1 is boring as bat shit. You’re first at turn 1 you win. Should we just stop MTB innovation now? That’ll sell a bunch of bikes in 2026….
7. Whether the limit is 25 or 32 you’re still mostly quicker going down than up.

The EURO/Japanese motor manufacturers did this to themselves. They’re shitting themselves that their complacency and program of incremental upgrades for the last 5 years has been thrown out by the upstart.They’ve been treating riders with contempt for years. But that’s changed and they don’t like it. There’s only enough room for a few major players in the eBike market and they’re now worried they’ll be relegated to bit players. Good. Frankly if Shimano is driven out of the motor market it’d be a good thing.

If the old manufacturers wanted to do some good and really cared they’d lobby to standardise speed restrictions world wide and make it impossible to derestrict their motors. But that ain’t going to happen is it.

Gordon

I follow some of your ramble, however, it’s a lot to unpack in one thread and several points are also somewhat inaccurate or unclear and detract from your larger argument. I agree on your comment about the subject of derestricting being discussed although I’m less certain as to how much is actually done (perhaps EMTB can survey readers”how many of you have derestricted your e-bike?). As to comment regarding lying or being misinformed regarding power in US, this is one of several you can find regarding power/speed regulations in most US states, including CA with a large population and mountain biking culture.
I can’t disagree about the “old guard” wishing to avoid competition but a power number based sales competition is going to be limited by regulations. As to access, many areas are still “officially” closed to e-bike access (not that we don’t have our “unsanctioned” trails) and our land managers/agencies are not currently focusing on power outputs and I’d be loathe to give them another weapon.

https://www.palmdesert.gov/Home/Components/News/News/17129/17#:~:text=E%2Dbikes%20are%20designed%20and,to%20be%20registered%20and%20insured.

 

[ari]

Lol, well you voiced what I was thinking but in a blunter (and funnier) manner!

You are just as stupid as your buddy then... neither of you should be here, please leave.

 

[Amber Valley Guy]

You obviously dont think before you post[you toxic abuser] . I race and sometimes cross train on the local bmx track , so that makes your comment just infantile.....

I don't give a toss, you've never seen an MTB rider going 37 mph on a flat

 

[ari]

I don't give a toss, you've never seen an MTB rider going 37 mph on a flat

You are making yourself look slow , lots of elite pro riders in my club and they go even faster, dont comment if you are a complete backyard peddler .

 

[Downhillr]

You are just as stupid as your buddy then... neither of you should be here, please leave.

Appears you may be having a bad day, regardless it diesnt negate inaccurate (some might say stupid) comments such as “where the embt rider is huffing and buffing at 26.5kmph”, why would e-mtb rider be going that slow on the downhill? Just because the pedal assist cuts out doesn't mean you’d be spped limited and passed by other riders.

 

[Amber Valley Guy]

You are making yourself look slow , lots of elite pro riders in my club and they go even faster, dont comment if you are a complete backyard peddler .

Wtf? It was you who said you couldn't keep up. Have you tried therapy?

 

[ari]

Appears you may be having a bad day, regardless it diesnt negate inaccurate (some might say stupid) comments such as “where the embt rider is huffing and buffing at 26.5kmph”, why would e-mtb rider be going that slow on the downhill? Just because the pedal assist cuts out doesn't mean you’d be spped limited and passed by other riders.

Obviously iv hit a nerve with you 2 slugs/snails , no ebike can keep up on downhill or flats against a mtb [with good riders on board], sometimes mtb will jump and clear the whole section , pick up double speed on downhills etc.

 

[ari]

Wtf? It was you who said you couldn't keep up. Have you tried therapy?

Omg you are stupid, im talking about the type of bike..

 

[Amber Valley Guy]

Omg you are stupid, im talking about the type of bike..

Don't twist your way out of that this, you was talking complete bollocks, type of bike? Any more bollocks to say,?