Power Struggle: Who Controls the Future of E‑MTB?

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Can't have identical mounting patterns, because then: 1) there would be no significant development, and 2) they wouldn't be selling new bikes any longer!

The DJI even if limited to 100 NM/ 750 watts max (or whatever) is still a highly competitive motor with a lighter weight, smaller footprint, slender 800-watt battery & can probably be produced at a lower cost in China than a Bosch in Germany. Furthermore, there are other ways to differentiate oneself than just power. Including noise, reliability, efficiency, low pedaling effort, dealer support, etc.
 
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Although this will affect e-mtbs I highly doubt it's actually aimed at us. Our bikes are probably way over equipped with braking power (brakes plus tyres and suspension) than a cheap Engwe (or other Chinese brand) purchased via Amazon. I think people on the regulation side of things are firing a warning shot over the entire ebike area, ie regulate yourselves to a peak max 1hp limit (750w) or we'll do it for you.

Unfortunately the eMTB industry will comply, the cheapo £1500 Chinese ebikes will ignore it, the illegal on our streets Sur Ron brigade will still commit crimes in our city centres as will the illegal immigrants delivering fast food on their dodgy home built 2kw ebikes.
 
There will always be a minority of eMTB riders who would always prefer more power, and even more power!

But if power and torque become the almost exclusive parameters that drive new eMTB motor development then it will come at the cost of other factors that I'm sure many of us would find more desirable. Motor reliability, motor noise, refined natural power delivery, motor size, total system weight, battery size, autonomy etc.

I'm sure many of us admire the new bikes that have just been launched with the DJI motor, not necessarily for its power but because the motor's small size makes it discrete, the 800Wh battery still allows for a svelte downtube, and the overall bike weight is impressively low. That's pretty amazing engineering!

But if DJI can produce such a hugely powerful motor/battery system that is this small and light then just imagine how we'd all be raving if they launched a less powerful motor (eg 500W/85Nm) that was no bigger and even lighter and quieter than the TQ HPR50.

I've seen so many comments that ask for better motor reliability, or want a common standard for motor mountings that would allow an exchange of different motors, or replacement with the latest model if an old motor dies . But such things will remain pipe dreams if the competition between manufacturers is driven solely by a power arms race.

I do tend to agree with those who argue that it is speed limitation and not motor power that is the primary safety issue for our bikes, but I don't think that it then follows that we should all seek the most powerful motors possible!
 
The 25 klm/hr EU speed restriction is already enough of a muzzle. How quickly an EMTB gets there is irrelevant.

Riding around at the highest assistance levels can’t be sustained anyway before the thermal protection kicks in and/or your battery is completely drained. So in reality most aren’t exploiting the full power/torque capabilities for any length of time anyway because it’s not possible to do so. Accordingly these barriers already curtail the full use of power/torque.
 
Not all motors are equal, it’s true, but neither are the bikes they’re fitted to.

There’s much more to an emtb than the motor, just like non emtbs differ hugely in how they ride powered by nothing more than humans.

The other thing that occurs to me is when we purchased whatever emtb we did, we knew what the assist limits were so seems a bit strange to be moaning it’s too slow now and/or you can go quicker downhill etc.

E-bikes are regulated, and I can’t imagine a time when they won’t be if we want to be able to legally ride them on public land. Horses can’t be ridden on footpaths here in the UK, nor cars or motorbikes driven on bridleways, even watercraft can’t be taken everywhere there happens to be water. Regulation is normal stuff.
 
Firstly I'd like to applaud Robs insightful and balanced article 👏
But I think the legacy players are 100% trying to hobble DJI through the back door all on the pretence of safety.
Bosch we're happy to take sales from Shimano powered bikes when they were the motor to have, and then preceeded to come out with a race motor upping the anti again, and were happy with all the media hype surrounding it.
Now DJI have come out of nowhere and decimated their offering, (while staying within the current legislation) they have suddenly gone all coy and think power should be capped at unsurprisingly exactly the power of their motors!
Sorry it stinks!
 
Well 3 days ago I put a deposit down on a Santa Cruz Bullit XO. A big outlay for me. My dream bike.
Then last night I read this article and now I’m feeling some buyers remorse. I’m confused and I guess worried I’ve made a bad decision. Esp since it’s a 4-5 month wait for delivery.
Can anyone reassure me that I haven’t wasted all this cash and my new bike won’t be completely outdated this time next year?!!
 
Q9000 said:
Well 3 days ago I put a deposit down on a Santa Cruz Bullit XO. A big outlay for me. My dream bike.
Then last night I read this article and now I’m feeling some buyers remorse. I’m confused and I guess worried I’ve made a bad decision. Esp since it’s a 4-5 month wait for delivery.
Can anyone reassure me that I haven’t wasted all this cash and my new bike won’t be completely outdated this time next year?!!
Click to expand...
You're fine brother
 
Q9000 said:
Well 3 days ago I put a deposit down on a Santa Cruz Bullit XO. A big outlay for me. My dream bike.
Then last night I read this article and now I’m feeling some buyers remorse. I’m confused and I guess worried I’ve made a bad decision. Esp since it’s a 4-5 month wait for delivery.
Can anyone reassure me that I haven’t wasted all this cash and my new bike won’t be completely outdated this time next year?!!
Click to expand...
Its a great bike i tested it yesterday, it will leave you very happy and the motor software upgrade coming is also good....
 
I note that the links to the Thank Tank article in EBIKE-MTB aren't working, it seems that the article has perhaps been updated? Now version 2. I wonder what they've changed 🤔
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Q9000 said:
Well 3 days ago I put a deposit down on a Santa Cruz Bullit XO. A big outlay for me. My dream bike.
Then last night I read this article and now I’m feeling some buyers remorse. I’m confused and I guess worried I’ve made a bad decision. Esp since it’s a 4-5 month wait for delivery.
Can anyone reassure me that I haven’t wasted all this cash and my new bike won’t be completely outdated this time next year?!!
Click to expand...
ebikes are at a point now where they're not going to be "outdated" unless you just must have the latest and greatest. People have been happily riding gen3 Levos for years, which are older and less refined than the Bullit, and they will continue to do so for years to come.
 
It is very easy for us to get fixated on EMTBs when in reality they form a very small niche within the overall electric bike market. Regulators and even various cycling associations will have very little knowledge of this special and sophisticated niche. The primary focus and most visible segments of the electric bike market are city/commuter bikes and delivery bikes.
To understand why the electric bicycle market was regulated in the way we are all familiar with, you need to go back when those regulations were made. It seems the EU regulations were the most influencial since many jurisdictions either adopted the same approach or at least based their regulations on them but with some modifications.

Electric bikes started to appear on urban streets in numbers and it became clear a new motorized transport format had been created. Bicycles were not motorized so the first/lowest class of motorised vehicle was the moped. Cycling industry input to the regulatory committee pushed to have a bicycle equipped with an electric motor to retain its classification as a bicycle in order to avoid the need for manufacturers to commit to TYPE APPROVAL and for riders to avoid registration/tax/insurance/testing etc associated with all other motorised vehicles. Meanwhile the regulatory committee was interested in promoting cycling as an eco friendly form of personal transport especially in built up areas. Hence an agreement was reached that enabled electric bikes as a new classification of vehicle but restricted to pedal assist, a maximum assisted speed and a maximum nominal motor power rating..........an EPAC/Pedelec. Nothing in their deliberations took account of a number of special needs in various segments of the electric bike market (see later). Net result of that over time has been various methods of derestriction, DIY conversion kits many of which are much more powerful, and purchase of new more powerful electric bikes that do not conform to the regulations. Even within the regulations they failed to specify power output of the electric motor in any meaningful way. There is little wonder that a review is long overdue!!
As EMTBers we would like a increased max assist speed, manufacturers of cargo bikes would like more power. Regulators would like better methods/systems to ensure electric bikes conform to those regulations. Key to that is how they can be properly enforced. Clearly the bike industry wants conforming electric bikes to retain their status as bicycles.

Here are some suggestions which they could consider:-
1. Limit maximum power output rather than nominal. I dont know if 750w is the right figure but with the exception of the DJI it is more than most other motors currently.
2. allow a higher maximum power for bikes with 2 forward wheels and a minimum weight ( cargo bikes) .
3. Increase max assisted speed to 32kph ( except for cargo bikes who stay with the slower limit)
4. retain pedal assist only..........no throttles.
5. Introduce stricter controls on the sale of non conforming bikes and derestriction devices.
 
Mikerb said:
It is very easy for us to get fixated on EMTBs when in reality they form a very small niche within the overall electric bike market. Regulators and even various cycling associations will have very little knowledge of this special and sophisticated niche. The primary focus and most visible segments of the electric bike market are city/commuter bikes and delivery bikes.
To understand why the electric bicycle market was regulated in the way we are all familiar with, you need to go back when those regulations were made. It seems the EU regulations were the most influencial since many jurisdictions either adopted the same approach or at least based their regulations on them but with some modifications.

Electric bikes started to appear on urban streets in numbers and it became clear a new motorized transport format had been created. Bicycles were not motorized so the first/lowest class of motorised vehicle was the moped. Cycling industry input to the regulatory committee pushed to have a bicycle equipped with an electric motor to retain its classification as a bicycle in order to avoid the need for manufacturers to commit to TYPE APPROVAL and for riders to avoid registration/tax/insurance/testing etc associated with all other motorised vehicles. Meanwhile the regulatory committee was interested in promoting cycling as an eco friendly form of personal transport especially in built up areas. Hence an agreement was reached that enabled electric bikes as a new classification of vehicle but restricted to pedal assist, a maximum assisted speed and a maximum nominal motor power rating..........an EPAC/Pedelec. Nothing in their deliberations took account of a number of special needs in various segments of the electric bike market (see later). Net result of that over time has been various methods of derestriction, DIY conversion kits many of which are much more powerful, and purchase of new more powerful electric bikes that do not conform to the regulations. Even within the regulations they failed to specify power output of the electric motor in any meaningful way. There is little wonder that a review is long overdue!!
As EMTBers we would like a increased max assist speed, manufacturers of cargo bikes would like more power. Regulators would like better methods/systems to ensure electric bikes conform to those regulations. Key to that is how they can be properly enforced. Clearly the bike industry wants conforming electric bikes to retain their status as bicycles.

Here are some suggestions which they could consider:-
1. Limit maximum power output rather than nominal. I dont know if 750w is the right figure but with the exception of the DJI it is more than most other motors currently.
2. allow a higher maximum power for bikes with 2 forward wheels and a minimum weight ( cargo bikes) .
3. Increase max assisted speed to 32kph ( except for cargo bikes who stay with the slower limit)
4. retain pedal assist only..........no throttles.
5. Introduce stricter controls on the sale of non conforming bikes and derestriction devices.
Click to expand...
I think what most people want, and is most in the interest of keeping these things regulated as bicycles, is perhaps an assistance multiple cap. The last thing we want is for moped with pedals you barely have to spin to be zooming around and muddying the waters.

I'm not sure what that limit would be, but something like shuttle mode on the new Levo would be the opposite of what it requires.
 
Suns_PSD said:
Can't have identical mounting patterns, because then: 1) there would be no significant development, and 2) they wouldn't be selling new bikes any longer!

The DJI even if limited to 100 NM/ 750 watts max (or whatever) is still a highly competitive motor with a lighter weight, smaller footprint, slender 800-watt battery & can probably be produced at a lower cost in China than a Bosch in Germany. Furthermore, there are other ways to differentiate oneself than just power. Including noise, reliability, efficiency, low pedaling effort, dealer support, etc.
Click to expand...
Bosch Motors are not produced in Germany
 
The limit isn't the watt and Newton meters.
The real and natural limit is the steepness (gradient), the terrain, the riding technique, the bike's geometry, and the rider's weight.
At some point, the wheel will simply spin out of control or you'll tip off the hill.
I think, we have almost reached the limit with 120 NM and 1000 Watt. You can't get much more on the ground.
Besides, the assistance is limited to 25 km/h anyway. And that's not going to change. So it's a bike and no Motor cycle!
 
renomohitano said:
The limit isn't the watt and Newton meters.
The real and natural limit is the steepness (gradient), the terrain, the riding technique, the bike's geometry, and the rider's weight.
At some point, the wheel will simply spin out of control or you'll tip off the hill.
I think, we have almost reached the limit with 120 NM and 1000 Watt. You can't get much more on the ground.
Besides, the assistance is limited to 25 km/h anyway. And that's not going to change. So it's a bike and no Motor cycle!
Click to expand...
I think the discussion about these things becoming motorcycles just feel silly when you plop the Avinox next to a Bosch bike and it's probably lighter and slimmer. Like, yeah, it's more powerful, but it's not even in the ballpark of a Surron.
 
This does smack of disingenuous protectionism. As stated above, the real safety issue is maximum speed, not power. That Specialized have allowed voluntary class 3 modes to exceed relevant legal limits is far more dangerous to other trail users than power levels or, even more ridiculously, caps on output power as a multiple of input power.

Maybe be even more reason to buy a DJI powered emtb over Bosch, aside from the objectively better product - diluting their market share and therefore influence, forcing Bosch to truly innovate through real competition.
 
How many of us would spend 5k plus on a bike that is banned for off road use on public land?

I started ebiking in 2013 when ebikes were legalized in my home state of Pennsylvania. Most people didn't have a clue what an ebike was. PA is a really big state, and you are never more than 25 miles from state owned forest, park and game lands. Most have trails. Class 1 ebikes are legal off road wherever bikes are allowed. I'll be riding the trails in the Appalachian Mountains this weekend. We have MTB single track/downhill, natural trails and gravel trails on open state and county land. I am 15 minutes from a couple bike parks. It's a joy having so many trails to ride. That wasn't always the case.

There have been times that the state and many counties within the state withdrew access and banned ebikes for use off road on trails. I worked with a small group ebikers for a couple years lobbying for legalization and access. We attended meetings, testified and put together test rides so regulators understood just what they were regulating. Power and speed are real issues to keeping access. We spent years discussing exactly that.

In the end we won the battle for access. We could easily lose that access again if our bikes become too powerful in their eyes. Class 1 ebikes are allowed; PAS, 750 watts max and 75 pounds maximum weight. Off road trails have a maximum speed limit of 15 mph.

When ebikes were legalized here, few people understood the maximum wattage output. People just went by the published specification. My newest bike is 250 watts, 90Nm torque. Maximum wattage output is much higher than 250 watts. People are starting to understand the real power of these bikes. Regulators, Rangers and Wardens know too.

I believe manufactures are protecting their bottom line with these limits. They have their own lobbying organizations. They know just how tenuous access is. If I didn't have legal access to trails, I wouldn't spend the kind of money I have over the last 12 years. In most US states, riding an ebike where its illegal off road is trespassing. In my state that's an $880.00 fine.
 
I was told by a buddy of mine high up at Shimano that a rep from DJI was not at this summit, nor were they asked. I also asked him if Bafang were there and he said no he didn’t think so.
If all the powers that be were actually concerned for the sport, and not their own self interest, then all concerned parties should of been in attendance I would think.

I agree max speed is a bigger safety issue than torque or wattage output.
Of course that topic wasn’t on the agenda.
Probably because Specialized just added the class 1/3 option to their gen 4.

Kinda funny that say the last 5-6 years almost all the “new” groundbreaking, revolutionary improvement involve more torque and higher max wattage output and they only touted the Advantages of those.

Specialized with their gen 4 that they just released for probably the first time in years downplayed the overall weight # saying that it wasn’t a big deal.
It seemed to be a big deal before when everybody wanted to go lighter and lighter.

Im not a Specialized hater as I am currently riding a gen3 levo and I love it.
Just a few observations from someone here on the right coast of the good ol USA.
 
Plyphon said:
What I still fail to understand - and the article (which was a great read, thanks!) doesn’t touch on really - is that all these motors still have the same top speed.

So you’re not going any faster, ergo putting anyone else in more danger, with an DJI motor or a 700w whatever motor - because they share the same top speed.

Likewise I struggle to understand how on one hand the discourse says 85nm/700w is “‘more than enough” but 120nm is too much - if the former is more than enough then that assumes you’re still hitting that top speed often enough - so you’re still all going the same speed. The DJI just gets you there slightly faster.

I ride with people on EP8’s and gen 4 Bosch systems - I’m not tearing off into the distance - because we share the same top speed. On tighter trails your speed is dictated by the trail, and downhill everyone is going faster than that speed anyway.

To me this reeks of Bosch knowing their OEM agreements are in jeopardy (Unno Mith was originally for Bosch and they pivoted) as more manufacturers look at DJI. Perhaps many more have already pivoted to DJI and we don’t know it yet.

Perhaps also Bosch/Shimano etc are already in the development cycle of their next motor which still won’t match DJI, so they expect another 3/4 years behind the curve or to spend lots of money to scrap development and start again.


Either way, I don’t buy the rider safety aspect or even the self regulation angle if we’re also not talking about lowering top speed. If they really cared about those things, we’d be talking about 10mph limits to assistance to ensure we’re all being super dooper safe out there on our little bicycles.
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Excellent response Plyphon, its like you read my mind!
 
I agree with self regulation, regardless if the motive was questionable. Personally I don't need any more power. In fact, I rarely use the max settings even on an SL bike.

In my opinion, it's not a question of whether Bosch, Brose, etc can have the same power output as DJI, I'm sure they can, but I'd rsther have them focus on innovating other areas like smaller/lighter batterries but with more WH, app / phone integration, better and more natural ride feel where an ebike doesn't feel like an ebike.
 
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