New Santa Cruz model

Jhill said:
Going off dji company history no I wouldn’t be too worried, anything they make they end up doing better than anyone else and it’s looking like the same will be happening here. Look how many people already complaining the Vala doesn’t have an 800w battery, the amflow is lighter than the Vala, has an 800w batt, more power, fast responsive touch screen and quick charging. With the loss of vpp now it makes the bike much more directly comparable to other offerings that are also 4 bar so we will see how the Vala plays out. Personally my ep8 has been flawless, can’t say the same on my friends Bosch with two rides that turns itself off after every impact.
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Looks to me that there are a couple of things going on with the battery size... Size small is not available on the Amflow, the battery is long and thin, guessing it's using the same cells as the Bosch. So, choice is short fat and ugly but accommodates a full range of sizes or long thin and better looking but restrictive. Hard for Bosch to make the latter decision if they have to support so many brands. Vala looks like the best of the Bosch bikes so far. Im just at the point of due a replacement bike and would buy the Amflow but it doesn't fit, Vala looks good and I don't mind the range extender but its ££ for Santa Cruz premium.
 
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Randy said:
Looks to me that there are a couple of things going on with the battery size... Size small is not available on the Amflow, the battery is long and thin, guessing it's using the same cells as the Bosch. So, choice is short fat and ugly but accommodates a full range of sizes or long thin and better looking but restrictive. Hard for Bosch to make the latter decision if they have to support so many brands. Vala looks like the best of the Bosch bikes so far. Im just at the point of due a replacement bike and would buy the Amflow but it doesn't fit, Vala looks good and I don't mind the range extender but its ££ for Santa Cruz premium.
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What do you mean by the Amflow doesn't fit?
 
I think DJI will remain niche if no big manufacturer will adopt it. Kind of like Pinion - cool tech but very niche.

Also, DJI is untried tech. Will it last? If it doesn't, how does warranty work? Send it to some other country and wait for replacement? No dealer in my country.

Personally I aplaud Santa Cruz for going for the smaller 600Wh battery and making it fully integrated. Makes the downtube slim and keeps the weight down. Just use the range extended for those 3 hour+ rides - I don't want a pregnant downtube.
 
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Problem with the range extenders is what else do you need on a longer ride? Hint it fits where the range extender
goes. Funny not wanting touch screen we’ll see how many saying that now are the same complaining they don’t have it in 6 months when Bosch releases theirs that’s obviously coming and can be purchased for anyone who bought too soon.

Unless I misread the way it works I think the Trek has been the best new Bosch option. I think they made the downtube large enough for either battery and also it is easily removable. So one could use the 600 everywhere and if they have a back country exploration travel trip planned they can swap in the 800 and still have a water bottle. Then when in 600 use were only taking the extra material of carbon for the downtube and a latch, big whoop on a full e-bike.

I’m sure it’s a great bike and I’ve been on SC bikes for years but this one just seems to be trying to squeeze itself into to many categories it’s not an SL but not a full fat it’s not truly a Heckler replacement (can it do the same trip Danny did in Scotland?) etc.. and it’s a bit weird coming from SC that’s never been a company fixated on weight is now all a sudden more recently totally fixated on weight over usefulness, like even losing cable ports to save a couple hundred grams. Even though I’m on axs transmission it’s just an odd decision coming from them.
 
Jhill said:
Unless I misread the way it works I think the Trek has been the best new Bosch option. I think they made the downtube large enough for either battery and also it is easily removable. So one could use the 600 everywhere and if they have a back country exploration travel trip planned they can swap in the 800 and still have a water bottle. Then when in 600 use were only taking the extra material of carbon for the downtube and a latch, big whoop on a full e-
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I can’t get my head around cutting a honking great hole in the down tube - it’s just wrong from an engineering standpoint, especially after painstakingly removing removing every gram from the motor and the battery. Shame the clip on batteries are out of fashion, Lapierre glp3 with the new 800wh external battery feels like a good option.
 
Randy said:
I can’t get my head around cutting a honking great hole in the down tube - it’s just wrong from an engineering standpoint, especially after painstakingly removing removing every gram from the motor and the battery. Shame the clip on batteries are out of fashion, Lapierre glp3 with the new 800wh external battery feels like a good option.
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I see it as ease of use and convenience. I do a yearly trip of camping and biking all along the coast, this year made it all the way to whistler and back down to the Bay Area. I’ve always used my analog bike but next year plan to bring my bullit and may purchase a second battery so day two or three of camp I still have battery life and can swap the battery easily. Others may carry a battery with them (once again referring to Danny and Peaty epic trip). Others I’ve heard in cold winter climates bring the batteries inside to charge at night. Point is if the option is there it can be used or not used but if the option is removed now you can’t.
 
Biano44 said:
Yes, I’d read about the same rumours of a near 20% increase power which makes the 600w battery decision all the more strange as more power will rinse the battery quicker.
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Definitely. Bosch mileage/watt is pretty good but 600w in the mountains will be restrictive. 850w with the extender covers a lot of ground though.
Eastern canada currently so 600w is fine most days
 
Jhill said:
I see it as ease of use and convenience. I do a yearly trip of camping and biking all along the coast, this year made it all the way to whistler and back down to the Bay Area. I’ve always used my analog bike but next year plan to bring my bullit and may purchase a second battery so day two or three of camp I still have battery life and can swap the battery easily. Others may carry a battery with them (once again referring to Danny and Peaty epic trip). Others I’ve heard in cold winter climates bring the batteries inside to charge at night. Point is if the option is there it can be used or not used but if the option is removed now you can’t.
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That 600w bosch plus 250w extender will last almost as long as 2x 625w with shimano motor. You get almost 30% more range/watt with bosch and the vala with those batteries compared to a bullet with 2 batteries is 12+ lb difference
 
Dirtnvert said:
That 600w bosch plus 250w extender will last almost as long as 2x 625w with shimano motor. You get almost 30% more range/watt with bosch and the vala with those batteries compared to a bullet with 2 batteries is 12+ lb difference
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Hmm well that’d be cool then but I’d like to see it tested
 
Jhill said:
Hmm well that’d be cool then but I’d like to see it tested
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Sorry *8+lb difference. Looks like tge vala might be able to be long stroked to 163r travel as well.
What qlwould you want tested? 85nm bosch v shimano tests have already confirmed close to 30% difference in mileage. I think that might be the ep801 pre power update as well
 
Randy said:
I can’t get my head around cutting a honking great hole in the down tube - it’s just wrong from an engineering standpoint, especially after painstakingly removing removing every gram from the motor and the battery. Shame the clip on batteries are out of fashion, Lapierre glp3 with the new 800wh external battery feels like a good option.
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That’s why Crestline’s design is nice, bike can use either size batteries (600&800) and easily slides out the bottom.
 
jbrown15 said:
That’s why Crestline’s design is nice, bike can use either size batteries (600&800) and easily slides out the bottom.
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While I like the look of Crestline's bikes a lot, the design compromises you have to make to do this make the downtube look positively pregnant compared to the Vala. You can see how much further the bottom of the downtube sticks out past the edge of the cranks (as a reference point for comparison) on the Crestline compared to the Vala.
 
Redlemon said:
A large company like Santa Cruz can't be taking business decisions based on guesses, that motor didn't even hit the market yet....give it some time before any serious bike company even consider them.

I agree that Santa Cruz made a mistake restricting the Vala to the 600wh battery as a lot of riders want a full fat battery with their full fat motor instead of being forced into a range extender.

Anyway, the hype train here is crazy.
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I don’t want to carry the weight on normal rides. Love the idea of adding a range extender for the longer rides.
 
Jhill said:
Also Bosch appears (no first hand experience) to follow the same German mentality of not being consumer convenient, any updates require you to bring your stuff in. It’s 2024 anyone with an ebike has a smart phone or laptop just let us flash the unit and be done with it like Shimano and I have no doubts DJI would be the same for any future fixes/improvements. .
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Bosch has been upgradable with the Flow app since 2022, no need to visit the LBS.
 
TheMirrorVision said:
While I like the look of Crestline's bikes a lot, the design compromises you have to make to do this make the downtube look positively pregnant compared to the Vala. You can see how much further the bottom of the downtube sticks out past the edge of the cranks (as a reference point for comparison) on the Crestline compared to the Vala.
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Funny, I personally prefer the look of the Crestline over the Vala (which looks like so many other 4-bar ebikes)
 
JP-NZ said:
Bosch has been upgradable with the Flow app since 2022, no need to visit the LBS.
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Oh cool, good to know. Their website keeps referring people to bring it is for latest etc.. so thought there was no user updates. I’ll have to try and play with my friends and see if the app gives any codes too since his just keeps shutting off.
 
Jhill said:
Oh cool, good to know. Their website keeps referring people to bring it is for latest etc.. so thought there was no user updates. I’ll have to try and play with my friends and see if the app gives any codes too since his just keeps shutting off.
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He may have a loose battery so any vibration could cause it to lose power. May be worth checking that. Cascade sells a solution meant to address this on Bosch batteries.
 
Biano44 said:
Yes, I’d read about the same rumours of a near 20% increase power which makes the 600w battery decision all the more strange as more power will rinse the battery quicker.
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You know you can change modes?
Am I the only one who loves the idea of a 1kg lighter bike, with the sacrifice being having to exert slightly more personal energy on a longer ride or carry water in a pack?

What’s the end game here? A bike with a 10000Wh battery with a 2000 watt motor that weighs 22kg? So you can be as unfit as you like and not be physically able to ride an analogue bike up or down a hill?
 
Lightme said:
A bike with a 10000Wh battery with a 2000 watt motor that weighs 22kg?
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I think for me the ideal bike would be 1200Wh battery with current Bosch/DJI power available, 21-22kg. Should be realistic in about 5 years.

Lightme said:
So you can be as unfit as you like and not be physically able to ride an analogue bike up or down a hill?
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Yes, that's already very much the case for me.


Oh wait, you were being sarcastic right, sorry but we are out there! I'm not alone!
 
Lightme said:
You know you can change modes?
Am I the only one who loves the idea of a 1kg lighter bike, with the sacrifice being having to exert slightly more personal energy on a longer ride or carry water in a pack?

What’s the end game here? A bike with a 10000Wh battery with a 2000 watt motor that weighs 22kg? So you can be as unfit as you like and not be physically able to ride an analogue bike up or down a hill?
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Ultimately the end game is determined by who I'm riding with and the technology available at the time.
I would like the capability to ride for up to 40 miles, in E-MTB, without fear of running out of charge.
The waters are now muddied for me as DJI have now shown that we can have that with 120nm available.
I have a a Heckler 8, and have to carry a spare battery everywhere I go.....honestly I want to move on from that now.
 
Biano44 said:
Ultimately the end game is determined by who I'm riding with and the technology available at the time.
I would like the capability to ride for up to 40 miles, in E-MTB, without fear of running out of charge.
The waters are now muddied for me as DJI have now shown that we can have that with 120nm available.
I have a a Heckler 8, and have to carry a spare battery everywhere I go.....honestly I want to move on from that now.
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That’s a question of battery efficiency, which is objectively good. More Wh/kg is objectively good.

Ride quality is enhances by lower system weight, almost irrefutably, for DH/enduro riding. Some people value fitness more than others. I think SC understand this and have aimed this bike at a particular market. (It’s very appealing to me, for instance!)

I rode some raw, serious DH trails today on my KSL and the downhill experience was so much better than my Crestline, which is still a great bike. There’s no getting around the 6kg weight difference however, and some days that’s a penalty I’m happy to pay with increased exertion.
 
Biano44 said:
So, back to my original question, has SC missed a trick?
The DJI system, is lighter, more efficient, bigger capacity and much more powerful.
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Yeah, maybe! However the Vala does seem more enduro focused than the Amflow - just look at the stock tyre spec. Super keen to try an Amflow, I might end up getting one.

My points above still stand that for what the Vala is, like for like, 800Wh is not always preferable to 600Wh, and there’s a strong case for the opposite.
 
Biano44 said:
So, back to my original question, has SC missed a trick?
The DJI system, is lighter, more efficient, bigger capacity and much more powerful.
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No, customers who don't care about ride quality and have no money can look elsewhere. It's said here in this forum many times that without support no bike company will start to use new tech. Because it will fail, one way or another.
 
Bndit said:
No, customers who don't care about ride quality and have no money can look elsewhere. It's said here in this forum many times that without support no bike company will start to use new tech. Because it will fail, one way or another.
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So, DJI, the biggest drone company in the world offer no support and will continue to do so?

Well, it's a miracle how they have become the most trusted drone brand then really.
 
Biano44 said:
So, DJI, the biggest drone company in the world offer no support and will continue to do so?

Well, it's a miracle how they have become the most trusted drone brand then really.
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They don't have the support now, how you can sell bikes now with future support? I can answer myself, you can't. In future they can have best support in the wold, but there's nothing now. And nobody knows how those motor will last in real use.
 
When it comes to Amflow, I would wait for year or two until people have had time to give it proper beating at bike parks to see if it holds up. Now it's an unknown chinese design that seems to be optimized on weight. I wouldn't risk my health and wellbeing by being the first one to bomb downhill and big jumps with it.
 
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