Levo Gen 3 BELT FAILURE

[High Rock Ruti]

High Rock Ruti

July 27, 2021

Brand new sub 800 miles Pro model belt failed yesterday, this is about 3 times more miles than my 2019 S Works, which lost 4 FOUR motors is less than 1000 miles thats 250 miles per motor. Let's calculate.....
The new belt is 300 % stronger good for maybe a thousand miles and it was ONLY $13,000 USD. It's the best riding ebike, I've ever ridden... for 600 miles!

Warmly Disappointed

Ruti

 

[ruppia]

?

 

[Zimmerframe]

High Belt Failure Ruti


Nooooooo Ruti ! You killed it !!!

Damned. So sorry dude I was hoping the incremental updates and upgrades would have solved a lot of the unfortunate problems with the Brose 2.1 (also known as the 2.2) . Not for everyone I guess.

What's the plan, new motor and hope you were just unlucky or return bike ?

Is it definitely the belt and not the sprag bearings - they're still a design disaster and you're too far away to get a new motor upgraded by performance line bearings - though I think they do have an american partner ? (@Bearing Man)

 

[Bearing Man]

High Belt Failure Ruti


Nooooooo Ruti ! You killed it !!!

Damned. So sorry dude I was hoping the incremental updates and upgrades would have solved a lot of the unfortunate problems with the Brose 2.1 (also known as the 2.2) . Not for everyone I guess.

What's the plan, new motor and hope you were just unlucky or return bike ?

Is it definitely the belt and not the sprag bearings - they're still a design disaster and you're too far away to get a new motor upgraded by performance line bearings - though I think they do have an american partner ? (@Bearing Man)

Yes, our American partner is doing upgrades, but making it better will void your warranty. https://www.performancelinebearings.com/new-american-supplier/

 

[High Rock Ruti]

Yes, our American partner is doing upgrades, but making it better will void your warranty. American supplier -

High Rock Ruti

What specifically can be upgraded?

Warm Regards Ruti

 

[High Rock Ruti]

High Belt Failure Ruti


Nooooooo Ruti ! You killed it !!!

Damned. So sorry dude I was hoping the incremental updates and upgrades would have solved a lot of the unfortunate problems with the Brose 2.1 (also known as the 2.2) . Not for everyone I guess.

What's the plan, new motor and hope you were just unlucky or return bike ?

Is it definitely the belt and not the sprag bearings - they're still a design disaster and you're too far away to get a new motor upgraded by performance line bearings - though I think they do have an american partner ? (@Bearing Man)
High Rock Ruti

Hello Zimm

Yes back to shop for motor replacement. I've had 5 Brose motor failures now and the symptoms are exactly the same. It feels like the belt is skipping across the splines, like going across corduroy. I assume it's the belt but we're unable to see inside to verify. I will at same point open the motor myself to look. Massachusetts Has a very toothy implied warranty law along with a law called 93A a consumer protection law that provides triple damages for failing to make a reasonable offer within 30 days. My guess is that voiding the warranty for opening the motor is not legal, and that the reasoning is partially to prevent consumers from verifying the failure. What's abundantly clear is that gear drives are far more dependable that belt drives, quite yes, smooth yes, dependable no.

This is a case of being less expensive to replace some percentage motors and issue some smaller percentage of refunds, than abandoning Brose's drive which Specialized finds itself "in for a penny, in for a pound".

I think Specialized Is the best bike manufacturer in the world and they stand behind what they sell, which is why I bought another, but also why I have spare e-bikes I'm riding the Rail 9.8 now. I've hade three broken bikes at one time good thing I've got 4.

At 66 I have more money than years left to ride so I've just gotten over the fact they break and keep spares.

I'm in Provincetown Cape Cod (Covid is over played) the riding is fantastic and I'm just about to go riding, "life is good, don't die"

Warm Regards Ruti

 

[Zimmerframe]

Hello Zimm

Yes back to shop for motor replacement. I've had 5 Brose motor failures now and the symptoms are exactly the same. It feels like the belt is skipping across the splines, like going across corduroy. I assume it's the belt but we're unable to see inside to verify. I will at same point open the motor myself to look. Massachusetts Has a very toothy implied warranty law along with a law called 93A a consumer protection law that provides triple damages for failing to make a reasonable offer within 30 days. My guess is that voiding the warranty for opening the motor is not legal, and that the reasoning is partially to prevent consumers from verifying the failure. What's abundantly clear is that gear drives are far more dependable that belt drives, quite yes, smooth yes, dependable no.

This is a case of being less expensive to replace some percentage motors and issue some smaller percentage of refunds, than abandoning Brose's drive which Specialized finds itself "in for a penny, in for a pound".

I think Specialized Is the best bike manufacturer in the world and they stand behind what they sell, which is why I bought another, but also why I have spare e-bikes I'm riding the Rail 9.8 now. I've hade three broken bikes at one time good thing I've got 4.

so I've just gotten over the fact they break and keep spares.

I'm in Provincetown Cape Cod (Covid is over played) the riding is fantastic and I'm just about to go riding, "life is good, don't die"View attachment 67591
Warm Regards Ruti

Well, At least you're not alone on the busted 2022 :

I have both a 2019 Turbo Levo Sworks and a 2022 Turbo Levo Sworks, both have had the motors replaced so I think both motors are the same.

Fortuntely with the Rail you have an excellent package to play with and keep you entertained as your backup !

At 66 I have more money than years left to ride

Lets hope you prove yourself wrong and keep rocking it high rock style, longer than you expect !

 

[Bearing Man]

High Rock Ruti

What specifically can be upgraded?

Warm Regards Ruti

Depends what we find when we get in there? The belt will be the new 2020 version, but the sprag bearings are possibly the older smaller ones? the rest on your particular motor is just water sealing. The other thing you could look at is: are there outside factors that are affecting your motors?

I only say this because at Performance Line Bearings we have been experimenting again! I monitored two identical brand new Kenevo's, both fitted with 2020 2.1 and later 2021 2.2 motors.

Over one year and approx 1,000 miles, they both suffered numerous TCU, battery and wiring issues, plus spurious flashing TCU lights etc. However one Kenevo had just one new motor, and this was not really required it was just changed with the battery for some reason?
The other Kenevo had 4 motors. Both bikes rode the same terrain at the same time in the same weather. The bikes were cleaned and maintained in very similar ways and the riders were of a similar weight.
I ride with these guys every Thursday night, so I could watch if they did anything different that may affect the motor etc.

The only difference I could see between the two riders was:
One rider had what I would call mechanical sympathy, and would ease off the power during gear shifts to stop the the gears being selected while under high load and select the right gear before reaching the hill or obstacle.
The other rider would crash through the gears while still under load and shift while hard climbing.

Now I couldn't strip and inspect the motors as they had to go back to Spesh. And I am not saying that shifting under load is what caused the failures. It could just be one rider kept getting Friday afternoon motors, I don't know? Sadly, the guy with the troublesome motor has returned his bike and bought something else now, but the other one is still going fine and the owner is currently very happy.

All I will say on this subject is that we do see a high proportion of drive train failures on Brose powered bikes, and Brose motors do tend to continue to deliver power after you take the weight of the pedals. This can mean that smooth soft gear changes take too long in the real world. Anyway, I will keep observing, see what else I come up with.

 

[High Rock Ruti]

Depends what we find when we get in there? The belt will be the new 2020 version, but the sprag bearings are possibly the older smaller ones? the rest on your particular motor is just water sealing. The other thing you could look at is: are there outside factors that are affecting your motors?

I only say this because at Performance Line Bearings we have been experimenting again! I monitored two identical brand new Kenevo's, both fitted with 2020 2.1 and later 2021 2.2 motors.

Over one year and approx 1,000 miles, they both suffered numerous TCU, battery and wiring issues, plus spurious flashing TCU lights etc. However one Kenevo had just one new motor, and this was not really required it was just changed with the battery for some reason?
The other Kenevo had 4 motors. Both bikes rode the same terrain at the same time in the same weather. The bikes were cleaned and maintained in very similar ways and the riders were of a similar weight.
I ride with these guys every Thursday night, so I could watch if they did anything different that may affect the motor etc.

The only difference I could see between the two riders was:
One rider had what I would call mechanical sympathy, and would ease off the power during gear shifts to stop the the gears being selected while under high load and select the right gear before reaching the hill or obstacle.
The other rider would crash through the gears while still under load and shift while hard climbing.

Now I couldn't strip and inspect the motors as they had to go back to Spesh. And I am not saying that shifting under load is what caused the failures. It could just be one rider kept getting Friday afternoon motors, I don't know? Sadly, the guy with the troublesome motor has returned his bike and bought something else now, but the other one is still going fine and the owner is currently very happy.

All I will say on this subject is that we do see a high proportion of drive train failures on Brose powered bikes, and Brose motors do tend to continue to deliver power after you take the weight of the pedals. This can mean that smooth soft gear changes take too long in the real world. Anyway, I will keep observing, see what else I come up with.

-

High Rock Ruti

Thanks Bearing Man

I'm very carful to not power through the gears under load, can't stand the noise of the spokes being rung by chain tensions.

Do Bosch and Shimano motors use gear drives instead of a belt drive, if so does that mean an inherent design flaw? Another question please, how is it that motorcycles can use drive belts that seem so dependable?

Warm Regards

Ruti

 

[NewBeeEMTB]

Please keep us up to date on what takes place Ruti, This is my first mountain bike period and I think it kicks butt so far. I really hope it hangs in there as I don't really have a back up right now if I get a motor or belt failure also. I have the 22 Levo Expert and here in SoCal the mountain riding is very exciting.

 

[High Rock Ruti]

Please keep us up to date on what takes place Ruti, This is my first mountain bike period and I think it kicks butt so far. I really hope it hangs in there as I don't really have a back up right now if I get a motor or belt failure also. I have the 22 Levo Expert and here in SoCal the mountain riding is very exciting.

High Rock Ruti

Take heart Specialized is a fantastic company that stands behind their bikes. This is good news about a serious problem, if your bike breaks they will fix it, unfortunately it does not appear that the purported "improved belts or clutches" are that improved.

Warm Regards Ruti

 

[Bearing Man]

High Rock Ruti

Thanks Bearing Man

I'm very carful to not power through the gears under load, can't stand the noise of the spokes being rung by chain tensions.

Do Bosch and Shimano motors use gear drives instead of a belt drive, if so does that mean an inherent design flaw? Another question please, how is it that motorcycles can use drive belts that seem so dependable?

Warm Regards

Ruti

So, in your case it's not gear shifting. Big rocks? Big jumps? Pressure washer? Deep stream on your favourite track? (Sorry, just trying to find something that could point to why some people have 1 motor and some have 4 or 5?)

Brose are the only company to use a belt, but although the belts do fail, it is usually the sprag bearings that give out first. The only other motor I know that use a remote drive is Rocky Mountain, they use a chain instead of a belt. This chain doesn't snap but they can crack the massive roller clutch bearing that they use.

There are other big differences in the electronics, Bosch for example cut the power for a millisecond when you shift gear, so it detects the load coming off, shuts power so the shift is smooth. Although on hard climbs or aggressive shifting you can override this, I have never seen any internal damage caused.

So, back to Brose... You have two sprag clutch bearings in the motor, one to disengage your crankshaft from your chainring when you stop pedaling and one to disconnect your motor from your chain ring. These sprag bearings were designed to be fitted into a machine to stop the machine from rotating backwards after coming to a rest. The bearings are designed to take a maximum load of approx 240Nm, and it's not really designed to high shock loads like:
Each time you stop pedaling to coast, when you start pedaling again the motor kicks in (without soft start) and races to catch-up with the crankshaft that you're spinning up with your feet and the sprag bearing has to arrest the motor as it meets your 60 or 70 rpm cadence. Over rough ground, this can be happening very regularly and eventually smashes the sprag bearing to pieces and you loose drive believing your belt has snapped.

The crankshaft sprag bearing goes through even more! The chain is snatching at it as it goes slack and tight, pedaling, not pedaling, suspension going up and down altering the chain length etc. This all transmits to the chainring and back to the sprag bearing.
Then what happens when you hit a tree root or rock with your pedal? Lets say you have a 100Kg rider and a 25Kg traveling at 15mph and hitting a tree root with the crank! This is the equivalent of hitting your crankarm with a 125Kg sledge hammer against a bearing designed to take 240Nm.

There is another particular reason for failure on the 2.1 and 2.2 motors and that is the large drive belt pulley support bearing moving! On the earlier 1.2 and 1.3 aluminium motors, this bearing is crimped in and rarely moves. On the 2.1 and 2.2 motors, the crimps do not work because the housing that contains the bearing is magnesium alloy and too brittle to crimp. To get around this, the bearing is glued in place and a hard pedal strike or crash blow to the left crank will punch the bearing from the housing and once the two belt drive pulleys are running out of alignment, the belt will fail.
The crankshaft sprag bearing is locked while you are pedaling.

Sorry I don't have time to go into all the other issues today.

 

[High Rock Ruti]

So, in your case it's not gear shifting. Big rocks? Big jumps? Pressure washer? Deep stream on your favourite track? (Sorry, just trying to find something that could point to why some people have 1 motor and some have 4 or 5?)

Brose are the only company to use a belt, but although the belts do fail, it is usually the sprag bearings that give out first. The only other motor I know that use a remote drive is Rocky Mountain, they use a chain instead of a belt. This chain doesn't snap but they can crack the massive roller clutch bearing that they use.

There are other big differences in the electronics, Bosch for example cut the power for a millisecond when you shift gear, so it detects the load coming off, shuts power so the shift is smooth. Although on hard climbs or aggressive shifting you can override this, I have never seen any internal damage caused.

So, back to Brose... You have two sprag clutch bearings in the motor, one to disengage your crankshaft from your chainring when you stop pedaling and one to disconnect your motor from your chain ring. These sprag bearings were designed to be fitted into a machine to stop the machine from rotating backwards after coming to a rest. The bearings are designed to take a maximum load of approx 240Nm, and it's not really designed to high shock loads like:
Each time you stop pedaling to coast, when you start pedaling again the motor kicks in (without soft start) and races to catch-up with the crankshaft that you're spinning up with your feet and the sprag bearing has to arrest the motor as it meets your 60 or 70 rpm cadence. Over rough ground, this can be happening very regularly and eventually smashes the sprag bearing to pieces and you loose drive believing your belt has snapped.

The crankshaft sprag bearing goes through even more! The chain is snatching at it as it goes slack and tight, pedaling, not pedaling, suspension going up and down altering the chain length etc. This all transmits to the chainring and back to the sprag bearing.
Then what happens when you hit a tree root or rock with your pedal? Lets say you have a 100Kg rider and a 25Kg traveling at 15mph and hitting a tree root with the crank! This is the equivalent of hitting your crankarm with a 125Kg sledge hammer against a bearing designed to take 240Nm.

There is another particular reason for failure on the 2.1 and 2.2 motors and that is the large drive belt pulley support bearing moving! On the earlier 1.2 and 1.3 aluminium motors, this bearing is crimped in and rarely moves. On the 2.1 and 2.2 motors, the crimps do not work because the housing that contains the bearing is magnesium alloy and too brittle to crimp. To get around this, the bearing is glued in place and a hard pedal strike or crash blow to the left crank will punch the bearing from the housing and once the two belt drive pulleys are running out of alignment, the belt will fail.
The crankshaft sprag bearing is locked while you are pedaling.

Sorry I don't have time to go into all the other issues today.

High Rock Ruti

Thank you so much I'm a contractor and former motorcycle mechanic and can actually understand what you described. One more symptom, that is the motor runs when I pedal, just no assistance, that's why I thought belt failure, clearly what you have diagnosed makes sense if the clutches have failed. I must say glued bearings does not sound like an improvement saving ounces on a 50 pound bike, at the expense of durability, no doubt sure.

Warmest Regards

Ruti

 

[Dago]

Bought a 2019 Kenevo on end of year killer deal. First ride, I hated it because of the cut out speed set at 18-20mph. Immediately installed “lite blue” app on phone and changed wheel diameter. Took about 90 seconds. Incredible!! I did not care about warranty since I wanted a bike that actually worked, since most of the time on mtb I was going over the set factory limit.
It’s two years old now, runs quiet, not one issue. Told my local Spesh shop that hacking it made it a better more reliable bike all the way around. They keep trying to sell me a new bike but with this having the Ohlins and Lyrik fork and slack geometry it’s just fine- especially with the obviously Wednesday built motor-?

 

[jsmith811]

Hello Zimm

Yes back to shop for motor replacement. I've had 5 Brose motor failures now and the symptoms are exactly the same. It feels like the belt is skipping across the splines, like going across corduroy. I assume it's the belt but we're unable to see inside to verify. I will at same point open the motor myself to look. Massachusetts Has a very toothy implied warranty law along with a law called 93A a consumer protection law that provides triple damages for failing to make a reasonable offer within 30 days. My guess is that voiding the warranty for opening the motor is not legal, and that the reasoning is partially to prevent consumers from verifying the failure. What's abundantly clear is that gear drives are far more dependable that belt drives, quite yes, smooth yes, dependable no.

This is a case of being less expensive to replace some percentage motors and issue some smaller percentage of refunds, than abandoning Brose's drive which Specialized finds itself "in for a penny, in for a pound".

I think Specialized Is the best bike manufacturer in the world and they stand behind what they sell, which is why I bought another, but also why I have spare e-bikes I'm riding the Rail 9.8 now. I've hade three broken bikes at one time good thing I've got 4.

At 66 I have more money than years left to ride so I've just gotten over the fact they break and keep spares.

I'm in Provincetown Cape Cod (Covid is over played) the riding is fantastic and I'm just about to go riding, "life is good, don't die"View attachment 67591
Warm Regards Ruti

Awesome Attitude you have !! I need to ride more !! I have a 2021 Levo, my 3rd one, so far no issues, but I'm not riding as much as you, and no views like you have there...

 

[brimcn]

Bought a 2019 Kenevo on end of year killer deal. First ride, I hated it because of the cut out speed set at 18-20mph. Immediately installed “lite blue” app on phone and changed wheel diameter. Took about 90 seconds. Incredible!! I did not care about warranty since I wanted a bike that actually worked, since most of the time on mtb I was going over the set factory limit.
It’s two years old now, runs quiet, not one issue. Told my local Spesh shop that hacking it made it a better more reliable bike all the way around. They keep trying to sell me a new bike but with this having the Ohlins and Lyrik fork and slack geometry it’s just fine- especially with the obviously Wednesday built motor-?

What's the "lite blue" app? Did a search but couldn't find much. Does this allow you to go faster than the 20mph cutout? Thanks.

 

[Turbo Mike]

What are the symptoms prior to the belt failure? I have noticed a "grinding gear like" sound when I G-out in dips (not bottom out) (Quite like non-Etbm when you pedal backwards). I am only 270 mile out on my 2021 Turbo Levo (gen 2) Any and all thoughts would be appreciated. Cheers!

 

[High Rock Ruti]

What are the symptoms prior to the belt failure? I have noticed a "grinding gear like" sound when I G-out in dips (not bottom out) (Quite like non-Etbm when you pedal backwards). I am only 270 mile out on my 2021 Turbo Levo (gen 2) Any and all thoughts would be appreciated. Cheers!

High Rock Ruti

Hello Mike

You pedal the motor spins up and there's no assistance. It's the fifth failure happened on the 2019 (4 failures) and 2022 first failure. No warning, just started free wheeling.

Perhaps your g out noise is the tire hitting the frame?

Warm Regards Ruti

 

[Turbo Mike]

High Rock Ruti

Hello Mike

You pedal the motor spins up and there's no assistance. It's the fifth failure happened on the 2019 (4 failures) and 2022 first failure. No warning, just started free wheeling.

Perhaps your g out noise is the tire hitting the frame?

Warm Regards Ruti

THANKS RUTI!!

I am definitely getting assistance (thank goodness :?) )
I'll keep an eye out on that.
I may devise an indicator or some sorts to determine tire spacing. Piece of silly putty or similar. Also look for witness marks.
Appreciate your help!

Happy pedaling!

Mike

 

[Dago]

What's the "lite blue" app? Did a search but couldn't find much. Does this allow you to go faster than the 20mph cutout? Thanks.

It’s actually “LightBlue”- it allows you to simply change the wheel diameter parameters that the motor interprets. Simple.
It is a series of numbers. It was amazing. It was kind of unnerving to do it to a brand new bike- My bike virtually has no cut out. In all modes the bike works so much better.

 

[Zimmerframe]

What's the "lite blue" app? Did a search but couldn't find much. Does this allow you to go faster than the 20mph cutout? Thanks.

It won't work on yours. You use bluetooth to edit the parameters in the "TCU" which on the 1.3 motored bikes was built into the battery. When they moved to the 2.1 motored bikes, with a separate TCU mounted in the top tube, they disabled access to those parameters via bluetooth.

 

[Dago]

It won't work on yours. You use bluetooth to edit the parameters in the "TCU" which on the 1.3 motored bikes was built into the battery. When they moved to the 2.1 motored bikes, with a separate TCU mounted in the top tube, they disabled access to those parameters via bluetooth.

The new go to app is “blevo”. One of the reasons I won’t buy a new bike is mine crushes anything I’ve demoed- including new 2022 SL and regular turbos. And the motor keeps going and going....

 

[Zimmerframe]

The new go to app is “blevo”. One of the reasons I won’t buy a new bike is mine crushes anything I’ve demoed- including new 2022 SL and regular turbos. And the motor keeps going and going....

Blevo's been around for quite some time. There's a HUGE thread on it here hosted by Paolo who makes Blevo. The same problem though, you can only edit the wheel sizes on 1.2 and 1.3 motored bikes not 2.1's.

Unfortunately, whilst it's widely used by 2.1 Levo/Kenevo owners, Spesh have locked it out from the new "Mastermind" TCU on the 2022 bikes so you can't use all the other useful things it does.

BLEvo Game Over (with MasterMind TCU)

Dear BLEvo riders, Writing this message to all of you is hard and painful for me. As most of you know, I bought my first Levo in September 2017. After having previously built an app that connected to a Bluetooth device (for my “real” job), I decided to develop the BLEvo app as a hobby. I...

www.emtbforums.com

 

[Dago]

Apparently Blevo has just created the new app for 2022,s as of July 1. Their app changes cut parameters and requires a hard wired pig tail on TCU

 

[Dago]

Blevo's been around for quite some time. There's a HUGE thread on it here hosted by Paolo who makes Blevo. The same problem though, you can only edit the wheel sizes on 1.2 and 1.3 motored bikes not 2.1's.

Unfortunately, whilst it's widely used by 2.1 Levo/Kenevo owners, Spesh have locked it out from the new "Mastermind" TCU on the 2022 bikes so you can't use all the other useful things it does.

BLEvo Game Over (with MasterMind TCU)

Dear BLEvo riders, Writing this message to all of you is hard and painful for me. As most of you know, I bought my first Levo in September 2017. After having previously built an app that connected to a Bluetooth device (for my “real” job), I decided to develop the BLEvo app as a hobby. I...

www.emtbforums.com

What’s really sad is the SL Creo has a cut out of 28mph, and the Kenevo SL is 20mph. Not everyone uses their EMTB to shuttle to downhills. I use mine to ride up and down they flow trails and single track- there is nothing like a derestricted Kenevo for this range of FUN !! In fact, I use the Eco mode to do long climbs. I get 150-160 minutes riding on one charge easy.

 

[Dago]

What I have seen and heard across dealerships in America is that perhaps 1 out of 4 of the older Kenevo models is like mine, no issues at all. This is actually a terrible track record and reading about other peoples issues on this thread, I’m gonna ride mine into the ground. I only paid $5200 for mine new and apparently it’s worth more now.

 

[chrismechmaster]

Sad new the Specialized still haven’t fixed this issues even with the latest version of the motor ???

 

[Rosemount]

Brose 2.2 . LOL .

 

[High Rock Ruti]

Brose 2.2 . LOL .

High Rock Ruti

Are those the 2022 Downhill/Enduro race shoes, I've been hearing about?

 

[MTBGUY65]

Hi as long as everyone is talking about Brose 2.1 motors and causes for failures I have a question.

I have a 2019 Turbo Levo Expert and I am on my 3rd motor. It has been performing well for a while now but lately, it seems to accelerate after I stop pedaling on mostly semi-flat terrain. I don't think I had noticed that in the past and was not sure if that was some firmware update?
Is this possibly the start of another motor failure? My warranty expires in November of this year so I would like to take care of it before that time or before there might be a failure.