Braking technique question

[JoeBlow]

I've been riding for a year or so now mainly at FOD in the UK. I can get down the blue runs at a fair lick but find reds a bit of a challenge and to be honest I don't feel that I am doing them justice i.e. I'm nervous and slow. I do want to ride faster but decided against coaching because at 73 years of age I feel that the return on investment will be very small and I'm not THAT ambitious. My question is regarding braking. I know that the advice is to keep a finger over the brake levers most of the time and I do but was wondering what that really means.

I have Shimano brakes and there is about an inch of play before the brakes start to bite. Adjusting brings the bite point nearer to my fingers rather than reducing play to any great degree. My question is when I cover the lever with my finger should I be taking up this play and holding the lever at the point of the bite or should my finger just lightly touch the levers so that I have to take up the play whilst braking. Hope that makes sense.

Thanks in advance for any help offered.

Al

 

[Sidepod]

I would suggest you just need to cover the lever and do whatever is required when you need to brake. It's not as though you will ever need to pull an emergency stop (unless a horse jumps out in front of you). The key to this is being able to ride comfortably and as quick as you desire whilst only needing one digit to stop as hard or soft as you need/want to. It does sound as if your setup needs a bit of tweaking. Sounds like you have quite a "long" lever there before bite?

 

[yorkshire89]

Take the wheels out and give the levers a couple of small pulls until the pads come in a bit further (but not so much you can't get the wheel back in).
This will reduce the amount of play in the lever. Some posher brakes have bite point adjustment on the levers.

 

[RickBullotta]

An inch of free movement is a LOT. I would have a shop do a brake bleed/adjustment on both ends.

 

[JoeBlow]

I have bled the brakes.

 

[RickBullotta]

I have bled the brakes.

Something is fundamentally wrong then. When you squeeze the brakes, does one piston push more than the other? You'd notice the pads contacting on one side first and flexing the disc. If so, you may have a frozen piston on one side. Unfortunately, Shimano brakes really don't lend themselves to easy piston rebuilds. You can buy just a caliper however. In any case, you shouldn't have that much free play in the lever.

 

[Mteam]

My question is when I cover the lever with my finger should I be taking up this play and holding the lever at the point of the bite or should my finger just lightly touch the levers so that I have to take up the play whilst braking. Hope that makes sense.

Thanks in advance for any help offered.

Al

Do whatever you feel most comfortable with, but on my 3 mountain bikes with 3 different type of brake (shimano XT, Magura mt5, Sram code RSC) I just have my finger lightly touching the lever . The position of the brake levers is important too, I like my finger to be right at the very end of the lever, just in the 'crook', that means the levers end up quite far along the handlbars inwards towards the stem to get the position right.

I also like the lever to be quite far out from the bar in terms of reach.

 

[JoeBlow]

Just had the brakes checked professionally. There is nothing wrong with them so one or two of you may need to reconsider your current opinions and advice but thanks anyway.

It seems that that amount of play is normal on Shimano brakes and every bike in the shop fitted with them was the same. Tektro brakes on the other hand had far less. I have to say I prefer the feel of the Tektro but hay ho! I always thought Shimano were considered to be the superior brand.

So back to the original query. When resting your finger on the lever do you do it in such a way as to take up most of the slack. The last response suggests not.

Al

 

[fenwick458]

my brake levers have a lot of free stroke too, but they bite hard before they touch the bar and thats exactly what I want.

 

[steve_sordy]

.......
I have Shimano brakes and there is about an inch of play before the brakes start to bite. Adjusting brings the bite point nearer to my fingers rather than reducing play to any great degree. My question is when I cover the lever with my finger should I be taking up this play and holding the lever at the point of the bite or should my finger just lightly touch the levers so that I have to take up the play whilst braking. Hope that makes sense..............

I too have Shimnao brakes and they sound the same as yours. I actually like that bit of "play" because any movement in my fingers as I'm bouncing over stuff does not apply the brakes. When I do apply the brakes, the slightly slower uptake of the lever force prevents me from jamming on the brakes and gives control over exactly how hard I'm applying them. I have lent my bike briefly to other riders who have nearly gone over the bars when applying the brakes, so I know there is nothing wrong with them. I know that I can set up brakes with what I would call a hard lever (I did it by accident the first time) but I just don't like it, there seems to be no finesse. I know that some riders prefer a hard lever; it's what one is used to I suppose.

Later edit I don't have "about an inch of play". I have never measured it so I can't be certain, but maybe 15mm? My bike is at the menders until tomorrow. I'll measure it then.

 

[RickBullotta]

Well, I have mine setup on 4 separate bikes with a lot less free stroke than 25mm - 5mm to 10mm in general. Anyway, I hope you find an answer.

 

[JoeBlow]

Well, I have mine setup on 4 separate bikes with a lot less free stroke than 25mm - 5mm to 10mm in general. Anyway, I hope you find an answer.

How do you achieve that then? I would love to know. There is an adjustment that moves the levers in but it also moves the position of the bite inwards as well.

Al

 

[yorkshire89]

It's definately not normal to have that much play, it would do my head in!

How do you achieve that then? I would love to know. There is an adjustment that moves the levers in but it also moves the position of the bite inwards as well.

Al

See my first post if you don't have bite adjustment on the levers

 

[RickBullotta]

How do you achieve that then? I would love to know. There is an adjustment that moves the levers in but it also moves the position of the bite inwards as well.

Al

I do a two-way bleed based on the Park Tools recommendation, not just a one-way bleed, along with the "burp" technique to get the last little bit of air out. If you watch this video, it will show you the steps. Note that it is somewhat different from the standard Shimano recommendations. You can do this technique without buying the Park bleed kit. Just a syringe and funnel will suffice. Note that the lever free play after the bleed in this video is about 5-8mm. Takes about 10 minutes per brake. I typically bleed them once a year (which also gets fresh fluid in) or whenever I feel some sponginess or notice a soft lever on a long downhill. If you haven't done a brake bleed before, my three main tips are:

- MAKE SURE YOU TAKE THE WHEEL OFF AND THE BRAKE PADS OUT AND USE THE BLEED BLOCK! Many a set of pads have been ruined by people forgetting to do this step and contaminating their pads and rotors with mineral oil. And by people I mean me.

- Use a syringe that has a clamp or compression sleeve to help you keep the hose on the bleed nipple. Even with that, they still tend to pop off if you aren't careful.

- Take a few extra seconds and be sure there's no air in the syringe between the fluid and the bleed nipple before you start the bleed process.

How to Bleed Hydraulic Brakes - Shimano® Flat Bar Levers - YouTube

 

[JoeBlow]

Cheers, I'll give that a try but as I only have 300 miles on the clock I might wait a while longer.

Al

 

[B1rdie]

I rest the finger extended on top of the lever while coasting, so that I don’t need to reach for the levers before any breaking action. I think its normal to have a lot of play at the levers, given they bite strong enough to lock the wheels if needed, usually the levers will be almost touching the handlebars when breaking hard, thats how it feels more comfortable to me.

 

[St4nley]

@JoeBlow while I don’t doubt others have had success at reducing the amount of free play in the lever before the pads bite through bleeding I’ve always found that the rear brake always has more travel than the front brake, anyway as per your OP , riding with your one finger resting on the lever not applying any pressure is the way forward.
Are your brakes shimano 4 pot(piston) ?

why I ask is with most shimano brake pads there is not a lot of meat on the pads themselves which in in turn creates quite a lot of lever throw, I have 2 sets of new Uberbike brake pads that I no longer have any use for as I have switched to Hope brakes, I could post these to you to try, free to you of course and they may help to reduce the play in your brakes.

let me know and I can post them to you.

cheers Tony

 

[7869hodgy]

I’ve never really given it much thought but you made go out to the shed to see .

Mine don’t move quite an inch, about 3/4 of an inch.

When descending I just have my finger resting on the lever permanently, as in pic 1. All other times I am holding the grip with all 4 fingers.

3rd pic is to show the angle on the bars.

I also have them at the maximum/furthest away from the handle bar setting so it’s just the end of my finger activating.

At 50, I am not quite as experienced as you . Do what suits you, is comfortable and effective.

Respect for riding at 73, I hope I make it and will be doing the same

Edit - being nervous and slow doesn’t hurt, vice versa typically can.

View attachment 61387

 

[JoeBlow]

That's very kind of you. I'm reluctant to change anything at the moment if, as the mechanic said, "everything is in correct working order" and I only have 300 miles on the clock.

Al

 

[St4nley]

@JoeBlow ?

 

[fenwick458]

 

[JoeBlow]

Thanks for that. It does actually confirm that there is a LOT of play on Shimano brakes as I was told. Unfortunately my lower spec brakes do not have the adjustment features shown on the video.

Al

 

[GrandPaBrogan]

My question is when I cover the lever with my finger should I be taking up this play and holding the lever at the point of the bite or should my finger just lightly touch the levers so that I have to take up the play whilst braking. Hope that makes sense.

Thanks in advance for any help offered.

Al

I could be wrong but I believe your question has more to do with ideal braking technique rather than the amount of lever throw your brakes have (which have been professionally checked and confirmed to be correct).

As @B1rdie already mentioned, you just need to rest your index fingers on top of the levers (without any pre-pull) while the other fingers are on “hangin on the bars” duty. What this does is drastically reduce the reaction time of lifting your braking finger up and out of the ‘pocket’ then to place it over to pull the lever. The distance of your lever throw is inconsequential, as you can close that gap in a blink of an eye.

Practice index finger independence because it should remain supple when not braking - even if you have to “white knuckle” the bar grip, say if you’re having to haul up a steep climb. This way you can maintain the progressive modulation and feel of whatever braking pressure needs to be applied depending on the situation, regardless of how hard or how soft you’re holding the handlebars. ??

 

[Mikerb]

Your post began by bemoaning your lack of confidence and speed on red trails..........then diverted to the rather insignificant issue of how to operate your brakes............which leads me to suspect you are avoiding the main issue!!
As has been covered above, as long as you can operate either or both brakes quick enough when required, your exact method is not really that important. For example, contrary to many above, I ride ( especially downhill) with my index finger fully wrapped around the lever very close to the bite point which in turn is very close to the bars. It means ( for me) I have a virtual full 4 finger grip on the bars at all times. I have Code RSC brakes so bite point is adjustable and there is plenty of modulation. I also have Guide RE brakes on another bike, but cannot get the bite point as close to the bars, so my finger grip on the lever is a little more open.

You main issue is lack of speed and confidence on red trails however. One way to address that is to stop trying to ride a complete red trail in one go but instead break it up into to much smaller sections and spend time sessioning one section to find the best lines, the best braking points, etc, and gradually increase your speed. Obviously red trails tend to be a bit more challenging than Blue trails but the problem is that riding some sections too slow makes them even harder.........because the bike gets stalled by every rock or obstacle and the ride becomes much less stable. That is not to say the only way is breakneck speed!..............just good even continuous flow.

 

[GrandPaBrogan]

Your post began by bemoaning your lack of confidence and speed on red trails..........then diverted to the rather insignificant issue of how to operate your brakes............which leads me to suspect you are avoiding the main issue!!
As has been covered above, as long as you can operate either or both brakes quick enough when required, your exact method is not really that important. For example, contrary to many above, I ride ( especially downhill) with my index finger fully wrapped around the lever very close to the bite point which in turn is very close to the bars. It means ( for me) I have a virtual full 4 finger grip on the bars at all times. I have Code RSC brakes so bite point is adjustable and there is plenty of modulation. I also have Guide RE brakes on another bike, but cannot get the bite point as close to the bars, so my finger grip on the lever is a little more open.

You main issue is lack of speed and confidence on red trails however. One way to address that is to stop trying to ride a complete red trail in one go but instead break it up into to much smaller sections and spend time sessioning one section to find the best lines, the best braking points, etc, and gradually increase your speed. Obviously red trails tend to be a bit more challenging than Blue trails but the problem is that riding some sections too slow makes them even harder.........because the bike gets stalled by every rock or obstacle and the ride becomes much less stable. That is not to say the only way is breakneck speed!..............just good even continuous flow.

There’s various degrees of riding skill, yours has been honed through many years and probably at advanced race level even though you do ride recreationally on occasion. I’m guessing the OP is relatively new at this, and only has an entry level brake kit. It probably doesn’t have the correct lever shape and sophisticated adjustable features to be able to properly dial-in an index finger short-throw technique ideal for DH sections. So baby steps I guess. The OP may eventually come to that by discovery, should he advance/evolve to that level in due course.

My wife on the other hand has plateaued early. When fear of falling grips her (riding next to a ravine on flat and level single track), she has a tendency to pull on the levers with no intention of braking or slowing down. Then she’ll unconsciously continue dragging the brakes even after the sketchy section has passed, because the eBike motor compensates therefore masking her bad habit. Seeing as she’d already ripped through a set of brake pads in a relatively short space of time, I have to constantly remind her to relax her index fingers when we ride together.

Which reminds me of the time she literally burned the clutch and flywheel of my car (manual transmission) when she drove it up a highway mountain range pass with her foot left resting on the clutch pedal... because she was nervous. A tow truck was involved and the repair bill was horrendous, but that’s another story...?

 

[JoeBlow]

I started riding what I would describe as more downhill, technical style rides last year after a several years break. Previously I rode mainly long cross country trails but packed in when the downhill reward became not worth the effort of the uphill trudge. I acknowledge that I am too slow on technical trails. It's very similar to skiing in that regard. If you have the confidence and can go faster, it feels easier. The advice to session sections sounds like good advice, I'll give it a go. I should also probably spend more time on the "skills area" but prefer to ride trails. At FOD I can ride the top sections, slowly for the most part, but after the second fire road the angle steepens, the trails narrow, the roots and rocks get bigger and it's just generally much harder. I'm not too ambitious. I have no intention nor interest in even attempting black trails, big jumps or road gaps for example but I would like to ride red/ 2 dot trails more confidently.

One of my problems is that because I prefer to ride when it's quiet i.e. mid week, I don't get many chances to compare notes with other riders. I am also acutely aware that if I have an accident on some of the off piste trails, which I love, I could lay there for some considerable time before being discovered. I think this adds an extra layer of inhibition.

Al

 

[steve_sordy]

@JoeBlow Your nervousness may be reduced by increasing your level of body protection. Now is the time to use it, not once you are fully skilled and gung ho! Get some knee & shin guards and some elbow guards too. You don't need the full on DH armour. I'm assuming that you already wear helmet, gloves and protective glasses. If your helmet is of the XC variety, you may gain more confidence from a proper trail helmet that provides more protection, or even one of the lighter full face helmets. The sort of helmet I'm thinking of is the Bell Super 3 (Google it). It comes with a detachable chin bar, so it does duty as a trail helmet as well as a full face. I didn't bother with the chin bar and the helmet looks just fine without it. I suspect they sell more without the chin bar.

I wear the guards and helmet mentioned above on every proper ride, plus all the usual other stuff too.

 

[JoeBlow]

I do wear knee and elbow guards. I have a Bell Super DH but haven't really worn it in full face mode as it seems like overkill for my limited skills.

Al

 

[steve_sordy]

I do wear knee and elbow guards. I have a Bell Super DH but haven't really worn it in full face mode as it seems like overkill for my limited skills.

Al

I used to think that when I was in my first year or so. I stupidly did not wear any armour at all except my XC helmet and gloves, even though I needed it. I thought I might look a bit "all the gear and no idea". Now I don't care at all because I know I need it. I have had involuntary dismounts at the most unexpected times and in places I was 100% OK with. If some extra protection gives you confidence then I recommend that you wear it.

Nice choice in helmet by the way! You may wish to know that my almost 14 -year old grandson thinks the Bell Super is "cool" and he really wants one. So wear your helmet with pride and be "down wiv da Youf"!

 

[Mikerb]

good advice re protection. On anything other than an XC type ride I wear Leatt armour.....kneed pads, airfit body armour, armoured shorts. Even on XC rides I wear a short sleeved Leatt shoulder and chest tee and a lighter pair of padded shorts with hip protection. I wear a full face helmet most of the time except on XC rides.
To manage apprehension/what ifs, you need to mitigate risk. Armour is one part of that. Carrying a means of calling for help or better still a GPS trackers that sends auto alerts if you fall and then do not cancel the emergency contact.( e.g. Garmin). Make sure someone knows where you are going and what time you will be back or arrange to call them when you have finished. Do a thorough bike check. Do some sessioning of a red trail starting with a walk down that section. Once you have done all you can to mitigate risk, you have then to create a positive mindset..........or not ride that trail at all.