Levo Gen 2 new motor = reduced assist on hot climbs

RebornRider

RebornRider

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My '19 Turbo Levo motor was replaced about a month ago (warranty). I restored my Blevo assistance settings and generally the new motor behaves the same as the one that died. However, when climbing on hot days (roughly 32C and up), the assistance abruptly cuts back. The original motor/firmware never did that.

I'm assuming the assistance reduction is the result of a firmware change intended to prolong motor life, but that's just a guess. Maybe my TCU is losing its mind.

Do any of you experience assistance reduction on hot climbs?
 
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I have a 2020 Levo Comp, but I also had a motor replacement recently. Last week actually. It was manufactured on the 31st of June 2020.

It did feel a bit different from the old the first kilometres but now I don’t notice or think about it anymore. And it certainly has not abruptly dropped power unless over 25km/h. It hasn’t been hot weather here though.
 
[mention]RebornRider [/mention] You should check diagnosis in the Mission Control app the next time this happens, and see what temperature the motor and battery has internally. On my alu frame I don’t think it has been over 48°C the times I have checked after a climb. Again, not hotter than 24°C in Norway though.
 
thbo said:
[mention]RebornRider [/mention] You should check diagnosis in the Mission Control app the next time this happens, and see what temperature the motor and battery has internally. On my alu frame I don’t think it has been over 48°C the times I have checked after a climb. Again, not hotter than 24°C in Norway though.
Click to expand...
Yeah what dis guy says
 
Maybe Spesh are trying to stop riders using boost for long periods as that seems to be the root cause of belt failure in the motor!
 
32C is hot for the motor.
Eduardoramundo said:
What motor firmware are you on?
Click to expand...
Firmware version 6.1.0

I logged my climb today, hoping the log would show the abrupt reduction in assistance. But it is cooler today, about 28, and I made it all the way to the top without feeling an assistance change. Figures.

My plan is to remember to log all my rides, at least until I capture the event I'm talking about.

Edit: My log from today shows a peak motor temp of 62C (for just 3 data samples). It was at 61C for 75 data samples. There is one new data sample per second, so we're looking at a bit more than 1 minute at 61C. My cadence during this time was in the high 90s / low 100s, and motor power jumped all over the place between about 350W and 450W. Motor torque output was generally in the 20s and 30s (nm).
 
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I’ve been monitoring my motor temps on climbs and comparing to my friends bike that has updated firmware. I’m on my 4th motor, he’s on his 2nd, my other friend is on his 3rd. In fact, I know 6 guys I ride with who have had at least 1 motor failure, some others also with multiple failures. When mine was replaced apparently they didn’t give me the latest firmware as my friends firmware is newer and behaves differently. We both use Blevo to monitor temps while riding. With similar assist settings it’s was apparent to him that the assistance would back off as temps increased, mine would not. My temps would consistently reach 10-15 degrees hotter than his. His currently tops out at 159-160 degrees F, his original motor would routinely get above 170F where mine currently gets to now. We came to the conclusion that they must have added this “feature” to the new firmware as well.

Also, do we have any real numbers on the % of motor failures? Seems to be above 60% in my area within the first year of ownership. Surprised there isn’t any statement by Specialized on this. They’ve always replaced the motors no questions asked but it’s annoying to be without a bike for weeks at a time, not to mention being stranded when it fails. There’s always some level of anxiety now venturing deep into a ride wondering if today’s the day it’s going to fail again. Nothing worse than being on a week long bike trip to a great location with friends and having your bike fail on the first epic ride. First world problems, I know.

2019 Sworks.
 
As I said further above, I had my first and only motor replacement very recently. It is a Levo Comp 2020 with a motor manufactured in May 2019. It took 5 days in Norway and I was told there had recently been more of a delay because Specialized had sent back all motors and they were all to be replaced by the latest edition, like mine manufactured in June 2020. I understood there have been several enhancements done to these motors. And Specialized recently extended the Brose contract to 2023.

It felt a bit different from the start but I soon didn’t think about or notice it anymore. I rarely ride in Turbo though. And in a somewhat cooler climate perhaps.

I just have to add that my motor never actually “failed”. I just got a diagnosis message in the app about the torque sensor, and the motor worked as it always had, the app just advised me to turn off for 30 seconds and turn on again, this happened 3 times, but they still sent a claim and ordered a new motor. I could ride it until the day of the replacement.

I hope all this means we will see less failure on newer bikes and replacements going forward.
 
My late 2019 Levo does feel as if it backs off the power when I'm riding in hot weather and putting a heavy consistent load on the motor. Does feel as if the system is backing off power to keep temps temps down. But I don't have any exact data to support this.

Good reply thbo, lot's of good info in your post. (y)
 
You guys are forgetting that motor has limited nominal output to 250W while it can reach up to max 565W when in turbo, but this is for shorter periods of time. So maybe this is what you're experiencing, gradual reduction of power to meet the nominal power output ...
 
salko said:
You guys are forgetting that motor has limited nominal output to 250W while it can reach up to max 565W when in turbo, but this is for shorter periods of time. So maybe this is what you're experiencing, gradual reduction of power to meet the nominal power output ...
Click to expand...
I never use turbo.
 
gaba said:
I never use turbo.
Click to expand...
The nominal power applies to all modes. Depending on settings it's fairly easy to get the motor to exceed the 250w for extended periods. I've wondered what the algorithm actually is since I've observed on some long (multi-mile) fairly steep climbs it seems it pretty lenient on exceeding 250w for longer than I would have expected. It's also crossed my mind that there might be a way to "trick it to resetting" for example by occasionally stopping pedaling for a couple of seconds, thereby letting me get more than the 250w for another stint. Full disclosure, I have no idea how the 250w average is actually implemented but would be eager to find out.
 
RebornRider said:
My '19 Turbo Levo motor was replaced about a month ago (warranty). I restored my Blevo assistance settings and generally the new motor behaves the same as the one that died. However, when climbing on hot days (roughly 32C and up), the assistance abruptly cuts back. The original motor/firmware never did that.

I'm assuming the assistance reduction is the result of a firmware change intended to prolong motor life, but that's just a guess. Maybe my TCU is losing its mind.

Do any of you experience assistance reduction on hot climbs?
Click to expand...
It does sound like a classic thermal throttling mechanism.
So either:
1 - The firmware has been changed to make the thermal throttling more noticeable or activate at a reduced temperature threshold.
2 - Your motor is hotter than your previous motor. Either a bad motor or poorly installed thermal interface, which serves to carry the heat to the frame.

If you knew the firmware version before and after motor replacement, that might help us understand if #1 is even in play. Our friend at Specialized Rider Care might help us out here. Does someone want to send out the BatSignal?

As for #2, we need the temperature data. Maybe 62C is the critical threshold.
 
I've been experiencing the exact same thing in the past 3-4 ride.
Significant power loss from the motor that comes and goes. I mostly ride ECO and some TRAIL, and recently I've had several cases where I could barely pedal the bike up in ECO, to confirm I switched to OFF and there was barely any difference, TRAIL felt closed to ECO as well, and then sometime later the ride - it would suddenly come back alive and trail feel like super-power again. Did not check logs as didn't think about temp issues. I'm pretty sure this thing started after I updated the TCU ver. to the latest OTA via the app. Mid 2019 motor, all stock and no speed limit hacks.
 
I believe firmware 6.1 limits torque under high stress situations to preserve the motor life. Shouldnt be abrupt though, should be a tail off. Sods law I cant find the release notes to the firmware though so its hersay

I’d have the motor checked out by a dealer.

There are a few people who have found that a hard reset of the TCU have helped after the 6.x update ?
 
Looked into it some more, very interesting:
1. All my recent ride logs on BLEvo reveal the answer - a "SMART" mode changes assistance power during the ride!
It is logged as "smart assistance changes" , right below the "manual assistance changes" that was always there.
2. This behavior began only after FW update, but I cannot fully link the two as I had one short (non representative) ride, after FW update and before smart changes logged where this did not happen.
3. I did try, for the first time, to use smart modes with the bike right before this thing started happening. I've used BLEvo's smart HR, as seen in the second image (has heart sign next to the TRAIL mode). Suspecting this was the matter, I did confirm smart modes were OFF on the next rides, but still smart changes happen. BLEvo does not show the heart sign anymore on the logs so its off.
4. I did rule out this being related to motor temp, as both pre-bug logs and post-bug logs show similar motor temp, averaging 50C to max 66C.
5. I could not find any correlation to power (WATT) curve/output. Not saying there isn't any, just that I couldn't see one, yet.

So to conclude:
- Motor power loss - not just a "feeling", its happening.
- Most likely to be related to SW and not HW. Not likely to be related to motor temp.
- "Smart Assistance Changes" are logged, most likely to be one of two reasons:
1. BLEvo bug makes smart feature remain active in some sort of way.
2. SPECIALIZED inserted this smart feature in their latest FW update (no release note, so who knows..).

Next steps - Verification:
- Reset BLEvo to all defaults.
- Run the bike from Mission Control for several rides. No smart features.

Community help:
- If anyone has data to support or contradict my findings - please share.
- If anyone can run the validation faster than me - please go ahead and share your findings.
- Is there a way to run Mission Control and alongside BLEvo? (probably not..) or is there another way other than BLEvo to log all there parameters?

Thanks all,

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20200726_173215.jpg


20200726_173350.jpg
 
gaba said:
I’ve been monitoring my motor temps on climbs and comparing to my friends bike that has updated firmware. I’m on my 4th motor, he’s on his 2nd, my other friend is on his 3rd. In fact, I know 6 guys I ride with who have had at least 1 motor failure, some others also with multiple failures. When mine was replaced apparently they didn’t give me the latest firmware as my friends firmware is newer and behaves differently. We both use Blevo to monitor temps while riding. With similar assist settings it’s was apparent to him that the assistance would back off as temps increased, mine would not. My temps would consistently reach 10-15 degrees hotter than his. His currently tops out at 159-160 degrees F, his original motor would routinely get above 170F where mine currently gets to now. We came to the conclusion that they must have added this “feature” to the new firmware as well.

Also, do we have any real numbers on the % of motor failures? Seems to be above 60% in my area within the first year of ownership. Surprised there isn’t any statement by Specialized on this. They’ve always replaced the motors no questions asked but it’s annoying to be without a bike for weeks at a time, not to mention being stranded when it fails. There’s always some level of anxiety now venturing deep into a ride wondering if today’s the day it’s going to fail again. Nothing worse than being on a week long bike trip to a great location with friends and having your bike fail on the first epic ride. First world problems, I know.

2019 Sworks.
Click to expand...

High Rock Ruti

You and your friends are personally responsible for the world wide shortage of replacement motors

Warm Regards

Ruti
 
High Rock Ruti said:
High Rock Ruti

You and your friends are personally responsible for the world wide shortage of replacement motors

Warm Regards

Ruti
Click to expand...
Can’t help it if we ride them like they advertise. If you put out an ebike and charge 6-13k it better be able to climb hills a few days a week for at least a couple years. I imagine those who haven’t torched their motor ride in places like Kansas or Florida.
 
gaba said:
Can’t help it if we ride them like they advertise. If you put out an ebike and charge 6-13k it better be able to climb hills a few days a week for at least a couple years. I imagine those who haven’t torched their motor ride in places like Kansas or Florida.
Click to expand...

High Rock Ruti

2019 TL S Works 4 motors less than a thousand miles then a full refund, right there with ya brothers. Right there with ya brothers

Warm Regards

Ruti
 
gaba said:
I’ve been monitoring my motor temps on climbs and comparing to my friends bike that has updated firmware. I’m on my 4th motor, he’s on his 2nd, my other friend is on his 3rd. In fact, I know 6 guys I ride with who have had at least 1 motor failure, some others also with multiple failures. When mine was replaced apparently they didn’t give me the latest firmware as my friends firmware is newer and behaves differently. We both use Blevo to monitor temps while riding. With similar assist settings it’s was apparent to him that the assistance would back off as temps increased, mine would not. My temps would consistently reach 10-15 degrees hotter than his. His currently tops out at 159-160 degrees F, his original motor would routinely get above 170F where mine currently gets to now. We came to the conclusion that they must have added this “feature” to the new firmware as well.

Also, do we have any real numbers on the % of motor failures? Seems to be above 60% in my area within the first year of ownership. Surprised there isn’t any statement by Specialized on this. They’ve always replaced the motors no questions asked but it’s annoying to be without a bike for weeks at a time, not to mention being stranded when it fails. There’s always some level of anxiety now venturing deep into a ride wondering if today’s the day it’s going to fail again. Nothing worse than being on a week long bike trip to a great location with friends and having your bike fail on the first epic ride. First world problems, I know.

2019 Sworks.
Click to expand...

?? God ... Glad I have Bosch gen4 motor. You know what they say: "Dog and car must be "German" ! Looks like that goes for ebike motors too.
 
nasamorpheus said:
God ... Glad I have Bosch gen4 motor. You know what they say: "Dog and car must be "German" ! Looks like that goes for ebike motors too.
Click to expand...

Brose is German. Levo is designed in Switzerland.

Oh, Bosch, the one my mate is still waiting over a month for a motor replacement. My Brose was changed in 5 days from claim and Specialized apologised(!) for that delay. My motor didn’t even ever stop working or make a strange sound. It was only a diagnosis message that triggered the replacement after 3 times showing up in the app.
 
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Specialized uses its own firmware on Brose motors so I doubt Brose can give you any info about it.
 
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