Handle bar stem question.

[mak]

I could do with a little more space from seat to reach. I have the seat all the way back and have rolled the bars slightly forward . would i notice an extra 10mm extra from my present bar stem or is that not noticeable at all in the real world?
Would i also be correct ( or it could be bollox ) as the stem goes out it also goes up slightly in height due to the angle of the fork tube .

 

[Konanige]

It will rise marginally but that will be negated by you being slightly more stretched out and therefore lower

 

[Gary]

10mm extra from my present bar stem or is that not noticeable at all in the real world?

What length do you have?
10mm can make a pretty big difference to handling and weight distribution (and grip) if you're talking about going from say a super short 35mm stem to a 45mm length.
Going from say a 100 to 110mm, not quite so much.

Just try it, Stems aren't expensive. Infact there are probably enough people on here who've switched stems that you might be able to pick up a bargain.

what bike is it?
how tall are you?
And what size frame?
it sounds kinda odd that you'd need to position your saddle really far back. Saddle should really be positioned in relation to the bike's BB for pedalling efficiency and comfort and not from the handle bars for roominess..
Are you finding the bike too small for you?

 

[Jeff McD]

It might also depend on your build. Folks with proportionately long torsos and short legs will need to make adaptations especially if they are in between sizes and would prefer the smaller size bike for it to be a bit more playful. I had to do this since I experienced the same feeling as you of not having enough room in the front compartment.
My LBS has a drawer full of different size stems for their rental bikes to fit customers preference when they rent. They let me repeatedly borrow progressively longer stems for a single day to ride with until I found the one that felt best. You can't test on flat trails, rather on ultra steep climbs and ultra steep drops. You might try that. Then I purchased from them the correct size.
Just so you understand what I'm saying, I have an extremely long torso and short legs for a 6' rider. My legs want a size L, but my torso wants a size XL. Initially tried the XL but could not lower the dropper post far enough for proper leg extension because of too long a seat tube. That bike also just felt too big in general. So I ride a size L with the saddle slammed all the way back and a 110 mm, 6° rise stem replacing the OEM 60 mm, 6° rise stem. Anything shorter on the stem & the front would simply come up on the on ultra steep climbs and front end would wander continuously no matter how far I lowered my chest. However, also had to shorten the handlebars as the stem went longer to avoid having my upper body pulled around and off-balance on sharp turns while descending fast or climbing ultra steep switchbacks. I know, I know, complicated, eh? HaHa. The curse of a weird body.
So don't be afraid to keep going until you realize you've gone too far, you're feeling overstretched, then back off from that. Also you will reach a point once you've gone past the optimal length stem where the front no longer gives any further improvement on staying down on steep climbs. Of course you have to realize that you must really, really get the chest down on ultra steep climbs in addition to the longer stem. You can't just sit upright and expect it to not loop out even with the longer stem. Sorry, don't know how experienced a ride or you are.
One final tip is that I had to raise the front end to get a proper fit as well as the longer stem. Did this with a 170 mm lyric fork from my previous bike along with 40 mm rise handlebar. You might consider this also as this gave me the most comfortable fit, less lower back pain on prolonged ultra steep climbs on our mountain trails, and more confidence with steep drops. If your terrain is mostly flat you might not need to do this however. Interestingly, once I found the proper longer stem, raising the handlebar height did not increase the front wanting to loop out at all. The length of the stem is all that matters for this.
Specialized does not make bikes that fit people with long torsos and short legs. But that's what my LBS sells and supports, so I must adapt. Hope this helps. I remember how uncomfortable that scrunched up feeling was versus how good it feels now.

 

[Gary]

fitting a 110mm stem to a bike that came with a 60mm stem will completely change it's handling.
And sticking a 110mm stem on a bike designed to use a 170mm lyrik is not the handling anyone ever designed that bike to have.

The front end of a bike raising too easily happens for a number of reasons.
one common reason is having your saddle set too too far back.
but it's nearly always more to do with poor technique.
Smooth power delivery and control in a good choice of gearing and good weight placement are required to maintain grip without unweighting the front too much. And the importance of this increases an ascent increases in gradient or the terrain becomes less grippy/more technical.
Bicycle front wheels won't raise unless you are actually applying an upwards force to the bars. If you don't believe me, try lifting your front wheel off the ground while riding no handed.
Try bending your elbows more to bring your chest/head lower and further forwards but also lower your elbows (and wrists) so that any pulling on your bars is creating a backwards instead of upwards force.

 

[Pdoz]

Try bending your elbows more to bring your chest/head lower and further forwards but also lower your elbows (and wrists) so that any pulling on your bars is creating a backwards instead of upwards force.

Sorry, I'm having trouble visualising this. Are you talking elbows lower but still out or elbows down around torso?

 

[Gary]

Sorry, I'm having trouble visualising this. Are you talking elbows lower but still out or elbows down around torso?

Yeah, elbows still out, but lower. elbows in would be incredibly uncomfortable on any wide mtb bar. what you're describing sounds like a roadie tuck, so no. not that. definitelyt not that. haha.
Don't worry too much about visualising it. Just remember to try it on next time you're riding a decent uphill gradient. you should get it fairly quickly. to help you actually think/say to yourself "pull back, not up"
Back being in relation to the bike/gradientrather than horizontally (as that's still going to exert upwards force)

Not to confuse you with information overload but there's also a way of "cheating" and making uphill weight/balance distribution far easier while climbing on an Ebike. Because you have the motor it's possible lower your dropper to climb seated with what would otherwise be an uncomfortable inefficient position that you'd struggle to maintain on a normal bike. This technique lowers your entire COG and makes it dead easy to keep the rear wheel weighted for grip with even less chance of lifting the front wheel.

also bear in mind, all technique will depend on your mobility/flexibility/dexterity/fitness on the bike.
eg. a big belly and not being able to touch your toes isn't going to help with learning how to weight a bike well uphill.

 

[Jeff McD]

Agreed. All conventional wisdom for sure. Tried to make that work early years racing cross country in the 90's. Eventually adapted as described above.
I suspect OP either bought one size too small frame or is cursed with proportionately long torso like me. All I can say is it works for me and OP might consider trying some of these things.
Long torso absolutely requires the saddle will be slammed all the way back in order to fit on the bike if you are going to buy a bike one size smaller than ideal for a more active bike. Longer stem also may be needed for a really long torso to let it straighten out in relaxed ergonomic position rather than being scrunched up and causing back pain on long climbs. These two adaptations taken together allow riders with my build to sit down in the bike rather than perched up on top of it. Really improves the handling. None of this needed for riders with normal proportions.
However I admit my example is extreme. I only used it to show the OP that just trying a 10 or 20 mm longer stem is not extreme and may be all he needs to adapt. Costs nothing to try if he can borrow the stem from LBS.
Agree that good climbing technique is a must. Reminds me of a recent video on pinkbike with Mike Kazimir, who is no slouch of a mountain bike rider, doing a video with Nino Shurter coaching him on how to climb ultra steep trails during a race. Nino kept trying to tell him to bend chest down more aggressively at the waist as he got to the steep section but Mike couldn't manage it and front wheel looped out repeatedly. Not enough abdominal strength to pull the chest down or just not enough flexibility? Then Nino would ride it and you could see that his chest was way more down and front wheel stayed down. Of course the other striking difference that was immediately evident was how powerfully Nino could apply power to the pedals in that way down position compared to Mike. Since I'm not a Nino Shurter I will go with a longer stem, haha.

 

[Gary]

Long torso absolutely requires the saddle will be slammed all the way back in order to fit on the bike if you are going to buy a bike one size smaller than ideal for a more active bike.

Bearing in mind if you have a particularly long torso for your height it quite obviously follows you will have short legs, How on earth do you think sliding your saddle back is going to create a good pedalling position for those short legs.

You should be setting up your saddle for pedalling comfort, efficiency and good weight distribution. If the bike is too cramped for you when seated in that position it seems fairly obvious you should have bought a longer bike. A longer stem will give the rider more room, but go too long and you'll ruin it's handling.

This is all pretty basic stuff

The video you speak of with Nino was with Mike Levy, who isn't a very good rider at all.

Video: Nino Schurter VS Mike Levy - Humbled - Pinkbike

 

[Pdoz]

Yeah, elbows still out, but lower. elbows in would be incredibly uncomfortable on any wide mtb bar. what you're describing sounds like a roadie tuck, so no. not that. definitelyt not that. haha.
Don't worry too much about visualising it. Just remember to try it on next time you're riding a decent uphill gradient. you should get it fairly quickly. to help you actually think/say to yourself "pull back, not up"
Back being in relation to the bike/gradientrather than horizontally (as that's still going to exert upwards force)

Not to confuse you with information overload but there's also a way of "cheating" and making uphill weight/balance distribution far easier while climbing on an Ebike. Because you have the motor it's possible lower your dropper to climb seated with what would otherwise be an uncomfortable inefficient position that you'd struggle to maintain on a normal bike. This technique lowers your entire COG and makes it dead easy to keep the rear wheel weighted for grip with even less chance of lifting the front wheel.

also bear in mind, all technique will depend on your mobility/flexibility/dexterity/fitness on the bike.
eg. a big belly and not being able to touch your toes isn't going to help with learning how to weight a bike well uphill.

Thanks Gary, I'd already figured out dropping the seat, as well as having a saddle with a sloped front to do weird things as I slide forward... but if anything I suspect my elbows rise relative to my shoulders - I'll need to think next time . Many years ago I learnt to not grip the bars in technical riding, mostly it's a motorbike thing, where death grip results in uncontrolled throttle and big bruises.....so I doubt I'm pulling up on the bars, but your suggestion makes sense.

 

[mak]

What length do you have?
10mm can make a pretty big difference to handling and weight distribution (and grip) if you're talking about going from say a super short 35mm stem to a 45mm length.
Going from say a 100 to 110mm, not quite so much.

Just try it, Stems aren't expensive. Infact there are probably enough people on here who've switched stems that you might be able to pick up a bargain.

what bike is it?
how tall are you?
And what size frame?
it sounds kinda odd that you'd need to position your saddle really far back. Saddle should really be positioned in relation to the bike's BB for pedalling efficiency and comfort and not from the handle bars for roominess..
Are you finding the bike too small for you?

You are correct in your final analasis , the bike is to small for me, its tacken a few hundred miles ( 800) to realise its to small. The bike shop sold it me as a medium and in the shop it felt big, as they do until you get to no your way around the bike.

Anyway that's another story and was months ago so I'm stuck with it.
More weight over the front would be good because i find the front washes out really easy, I'm no expert but having my seat and weight all the way back is probably making the front light?
The bike is a cube 140 hpc small 16inch frame, i think it has a 40mm stem, it looks really short and the bars are virtually level with the forks so hardly any weight over the front. I will buy a couple of stems and have a play .

Just to add I'm not 6 ft tall trying to make a clown bike fit me it is fine, i just need a little more room and now i no the bike it wont hurt to see if i can improve it for me, in an ideal world if i could wind back time i think the medium 18 inch frame with the adjustments slammed down would probably have been the ideal size.

 

[Jeff McD]

Hey mak, let us know what length stem turns out to work best for you. I'd be interested in seeing how long you need to go.

 

[Gary]

I'm no expert but having my seat and weight all the way back is probably making the front light?

Yes.
your bike has a fairly steep seat angle. this is to keep your weight forwards while climbing. It's not crazy steep though so should be a perfectly comfortable and efficient pedalling position with the saddle rails central in the seatpost clamp when riding on the flat. Descending should be done stood up anyway and this is where the bikes "reach" matters. Reach being horizontal length from BB to top of steering axis at the headtube. and nothing to do with the length to the bars. when seated, shorter reach just forces your body to be in a more upright position. But when stood up your chest will be more over the front with less forwards lean.

You haven't said how tall you are?

Looking at the bike's goemetry and travel I personally wouldn't recommend going longer than 60mm on the stem length. When you go longer it changes the steering/handling characteristics quite a lot.
In small the bike has a 416mm reach, which by todays standards is quite short, especially for a 29er, But having said that, shorter Ebikes are a lot more nimble/maneouverable than long ones. and because of this I personally size down on Emtbs.

Modern (longer) geometry asumes a rider will ride more centred than older (shorter) geometry. and in order to weight the front tyre in turns going from old sklool sizing to new you actually need to move your weight forwards. But if you aren't very tall you should still be able to adapt a decent more old skool riding style (a more off the back position when descending). One upside of old skool geometry/sizing is being easier to lift the front to manual and bunnyhop.

 

[mak]

I've just ordered a race face 70mm in length, I hope I've got the bar width and stem height correct ( I think it is) with a 6 degree rise. I think it should give me enough scope to move the seat forward 10mm to bring me back over the front more.
Looking forward to trying it out, I think 10mm wouldn't have been enough, I can roll the bars back as well if needed.
Thanks for the input guys I will let you no how I get on .

 

[mak]

Sorry Gary I posted that before you replied, I am normal size 5ft 7 ( 170cm) lol,

 

[Gary]

I am normal size 5ft 7 ( 170cm)

In that case, You're not too actually too big for the bike you have.
i see far too many short riders these days riding bikes they struggle to actually maneouver just because manufacturers and the media have told them new longer geometry is better. It's not "better" it's just different, one of the main differences and selling points of a longer bike is the extra stability they have. Emtbs already have way more stability than a normal mtb with the exact same geometry would due to all the low down weight and weight distribution between the wheels. Buying a long Emtb is always going to reduce it's maneoverability, nimbleness

My Medium Enduro bike has a reach of 420mm (3mm longer than yours) and a 50mm stem. and I'm 4" taller than you.
I am however more of an old skool DH/dirt jump rider who loves back wheel and popping about off anything and everything when I ride. So I intentionally sized down for a super playful and nimble ride.

My advice would be to send back the 70mm stem you've ordered and instead fit a better handling 50mm stem. Rolling back bars for fit is a stupid thing to do. Bar roll affects comfort and control. rolling a bar so its rise/sweep all falls backwards will make for a terrible handling uncomfortable ride. your bar roll should be somewhere close to neutral (just a few deg of roll) unless you're a trials rider or have some other odd quirk to your riding style.

 

[mak]

Thinking about it the 70mm stem is a bit much, when I say roll the bars back I mean to there original position as a rolled them forward a touch . Ill order a 50 and let you no how I get on.
Thanks for the feedback guys without people giving out information on forums we would all be back in the 90's talking bollox lol .

 

[mak]

I eventually got round to ordering this today, 50mm in length with a slight rise, I think it will be just right. I didn't no it was possible to become obsessed with stems until I got involved in looking for one. I wouldn't call it cheap though but it does look good




pics of big mama

 

[R120]

As an FYI the default position of the bars, i.e where they are positioned so that the rise and sweep is as per the specs, is for the rise to be straight up when you look at the bike from the side, get them in that position then adjust slightly each way to find your preference. Some bars have markings on them.

 

[mak]

That's a really interesting photo, I always wondered how to get the bars set back to standard if they have been moved without any reference points.

 

[Gary]

Nope!

There is no incorrect! it's entirely down to personal preference. and should be chosen based on rider position, comfort and control.

Bar sweep and rise are measured from the position in your first pic
But...
Bar roll should ideally be adjusted from the steerer angle, neutral roll being be at zero deg to the steerer tube.
This is because your steerer is a constant axis. so your bar rise being vertical from the ground is irrellevant. Most folk do run forwards bar roll though.
You can of course measure your bar roll from the vertical. or from the stem. (stem design/rise angle needs taken into consideration there though)
What is important is the consistency of how you measure your preferred bar roll position not whether you measure it from the vertical axis, or the steerer though. (As hinted to earlier, measuring from your stem will raise inconsistencies if swapping to different designs/rise angle stems)

@R120 Where did your pic come from?
Ah Vital?

Reading the whole article the author makes far more sense than his (exagerated) set-up pic taken out of context.
Here, in the second paragraph he quantifies it quite well

"We should point out that there is not just one way to set up your cockpit, and what works for one person may not be ideal for others. However, there are some fundamentals that you need to understand to effectively adjust your set-up to suit your preferences, riding style, and terrain".

 

[mak]

Nope!

There is no incorrect! it's entirely down to personal preference. and should be chosen based on rider position, comfort and control.

Bar sweep and rise are measured from the position in your first pic
But...
Bar roll should ideally be adjusted from the steerer angle, neutral roll being be at zero deg to the steerer tube.
This is because your steerer is a constant axis. so your bar rise being vertical from the ground is irrellevant. Most folk do run forwards bar roll though.
You can of course measure your bar roll from the vertical. or from the stem. (stem design/rise angle needs taken into consideration there though)
What is important is the consistency of how you measure your preferred bar roll position not whether you measure it from the vertical axis, or the steerer though. (As hinted to earlier, measuring from your stem will raise inconsistencies if swapping to different designs/rise angle stems)

@R120 Where did your pic come from?
vital?

Never mind about all that shit Gary what about my stem ? lol

 

[Gary]

Never mind about all that shit Gary what about my stem ? lol

We're finished with my stem recomendation for you, let a guy #nerd out, eh?

 

[Gary]

That's a really interesting photo, I always wondered how to get the bars set back to standard if they have been moved without any reference points.

make your own ref point. Take a pic on your phone, or physically mark the actual bar/stem with a paint pen.

 

[mak]

I wont let it lie, you no you like it, you just have to acknowledge your inner piece and except its the perfect stem for me
Incidentally i don't no what i was thinking ordering a 70mm , to be fair to me I ordered that before you said don't go beyond 60mm, I now understand your wisdom . It was like a massive extension bar hanging off the front end. Horrible looking thing

 

[Gary]

@R120 something I find quite funny is how the cycle industry/media like to fixate so much on one thing in almost waves of fashion. a few years back it was bar height/width. another season it might be wheelsize or frame reach. At the moment it's #fashionable to babble on about wheelsize and fork offset. I get it, It sells parts/bikes and makes people think.
What's so funny is that ALL of these (and waaaay more) things affect comfort, handling and control. And something so simple as bar roll and lever placement can effect a riders weight distribution, control and a bike's steering traits as much as the currently #fashionably_important_to_worry_about 2mm changes in fork offset conversations we see pop up today.

 

[R120]

Nope!

There is no incorrect! it's entirely down to personal preference. and should be chosen based on rider position, comfort and control.

Bar sweep and rise are measured from the position in your first pic
But...
Bar roll should ideally be adjusted from the steerer angle, neutral roll being be at zero deg to the steerer tube.
This is because your steerer is a constant axis. so your bar rise being vertical from the ground is irrellevant. Most folk do run forwards bar roll though.
You can of course measure your bar roll from the vertical. or from the stem. (stem design/rise angle needs taken into consideration there though)
What is important is the consistency of how you measure your preferred bar roll position not whether you measure it from the vertical axis, or the steerer though. (As hinted to earlier, measuring from your stem will raise inconsistencies if swapping to different designs/rise angle stems)

@R120 Where did your pic come from?
Ah Vital?

Reading the whole article the author makes far more sense than his (exagerated) set-up pic taken out of context.
Here, in the second paragraph he quantifies it quite well

"We should point out that there is not just one way to set up your cockpit, and what works for one person may not be ideal for others. However, there are some fundamentals that you need to understand to effectively adjust your set-up to suit your preferences, riding style, and terrain".

Yup I was just trying to find a simple picture to illustrate where to start from for experimenting. Problem with a lot of bars I have seen, is they have markings that make sense if you are using the same brand of stem and bars, but are meaningless if not.