Check out my YouTube channel, click HERE and subscribe to be kept up to date with all the latest EMTB content

Testing the new Shimano EP8 motor

Rumours about a new Shimano motor have been circulating for months. Now it’s finally released, the new Shimano EP8. Due to the pandemic, there was no press release event. But we were lucky enough to get hold of a motor and to communicate briefly with a guy at Shimano Public Relations. I’ll let him introduce the motor.

Shimano EP8

Introduction

Shimano: “The new EP8 drive unit is capable of pumping out 85Nm of torque to conquer the toughest trails and steepest climbs. This 21% increase in power over its SHIMANO STEPS E8000 predecessor comes along with a 300g weight decrease to 2.6kg (10% reduction) thanks to a new magnesium drive unit casing and optimization of the internal components. This low weight and high peak power make it one of the best-in-class drive units in terms of power-to-weight.”

Along with the motor Shimano introduce a new handlebar remote that is similar to the E7000 remote. The EM800 display resembles the old one, but it has got blue tooth support, an important change. There is also a new E-Tube app.

Silent and efficient

Shimano also claim the new motor is more battery efficient. The old E8000 had little resistance when pedaling without assistance. Thanks to improved seals and changes to the motor internals, the EP8 has 36% less resistance. Together with the friction-reduction is an improved clutch mechanism which provides a smoother cut-off when pedaling above 25km/h. Increased motor power can lead to increased noise. But not in this case. Shimano says the EP8 is less noisy than the E8000. Noise level is on par with the E7000.

Improved cooling

The magnesium motor casing and the redesigned internals has improved cooling. And that’s important. An ebike motor is legally allowed to deliver more than 250W for a limited time. When it reaches “thermal equilibrium” it cannot exceed 250W. Thermal equilibrium is where the temperature stabilizes. By improving cooling, it takes more time before the motor reaches thermal equilibrium. This means it can deliver high power for a longer period before power is reduced to 250W.

Shimano EP8 with the standard bash guard
The EP8 comes with a new bash guard at the bottom of the motor.

Servicing

As on the E8000, the crank axle bearings are not replaceable. Shimano says these are high grade sealed bearings that doesn’t need replacing. They also talk a bit about anti-tuning and anti-tampering. Any attempts to alter or trick the cut-off speed will be stored in the motor. The dealers will see this flag in their software. If this happens, the warranty will be void and they cannot service the motor.

New app

Shimano is releasing a new E-Tube app. The app will be available when the motor is launched, so we haven’t had the chance to test it yet. But we’re happy to see it offers more tweaking options. Now there are two user profiles that can easily be switched between using the button on the new EM800 display. This display looks similar to the old E8000 display. But the EM800 has got Bluetooth support and connecting it to the app seems easier.

The E-Tube app

So, how does the EP8 ride?

We tested a pre-production motor. It may be different to the final production motor. But this is the fourth time we test a pre-production motor. In our experience, the motor characteristics is pretty much the same on the production motors. But there could be changes to the production motors, either immediately or through future software updates.

There is a video at the bottom of the article. It shows how the testing has been done and it illustrates what we’re trying to describe below.

Can be quick to activate

After the motor has activated, it immediately provides a lot of power. And it does so very well. When activating, older motors usually provides a surge of power that can last for tenths of a second. This makes it difficult controlling the bike in technical terrain. This is most noticeable at high motor power. Despite immediately offering a lot of power, it’s easy controlling the EP8. It instantly responds to changes in pedaling force and it doesn’t shove you away unless that’s what you want. Both the old E8000 and the Bosch Performance CX gen4 can be a bit pushy when the motor activates.

It's easy controlling the Shimano EP8 in most situations, even at mximum motor power.

Full control

We could ride the EP8 at maximum motor power, and it was easy to control in all sorts of terrain. We rode places where we had to reduce motor power on the E8000 to stay in control. But we eventually got into trouble with the EP8 too. On day two of testing, the trails were wet. And we had more assistance than we could deal with when trying to ride the slippery rocks in our regular test climb. By dropping assistance to Trail mode, control was improved. Things got easier and less hectic.

Powerful motor

We did several tests of motor power, and we recommend you watch the video for more details and data. The EP8 amplifies rider input significantly more than the E8000. We got as much as 400% for the EP8. The new motor feels more powerful when the cadence drops. We never really missed more power than what the E8000 can deliver. But when the EP8 dishes out more power in a more controlled manner, it’s easy appreciating the power increase.

Super secret test bench

But it’s not all improvements

Shimano claim the noise level is improved on the EP8. And they’re sort of right. It’s considerably less noisy than the E8000 and Performance CX when pedaling. But it’s only when the motor is running. When coasting over uneven surfaces there is a clicking or rattling noise. It’s only there when we’re not pedaling. The Bosch motor has the same noise, and they’ve been criticized for it. Our impression is the EP8 noise is a bit less constant and intrusive compared to the Performance CX.

Pleasant at higher speeds

The motor will assist at full power up to just over 25 kph. It continues to assist at reduced power up to just under 26 kph. There is still a little assistance before it cuts entirely at 26,3 kph. This seems a bit more liberal than the E8000. The transition feels silky smooth when we pedal past the cut-off speed. Both the E8000 and the Performance CX was fine pedaling without assistance. The EP8 is no worse. Actually, it could be a tad better. But it’s difficult to say. We couldn’t find a reliable way of measuring it.

Conclusion

It was almost a revolution when Shimano introduced the E8000. We won’t use that big words about the EP8. It’s better in most aspects. But not everyone will accept the rattling noise while descending. We really appreciate how easy it is controlling the motor, and how little noise there is while pedaling. And we’re happy about the surprisingly big weight reduction. We like the EP8 a lot, it’s currently our preferred motor.

  1. No mention as to whether E8000 bikes can be updated with the new drive system. Any insights?
  2. Shimano are missing a trick if they don’t offer it as upgrade, that’s one option to update your old bike would make them a lots of friends (potential customers) & a healthy dose of kudos which they are lacking.

    ps: I know.. they don’t care and won’t offer it..

  3. The wait for the EP9 (SL power level for road/gravel/light mtb) begins. 😁

    I wonder how reliable this EP8 will be Vs. The E8000?

  4. The mounting system is the same but the wiring is different, meaning even if you could get hold of an EP8 to retrofit, it wouldnt be plug an play
  5. I spoke with Shimano about the retrofit – basically as far as they’re concerned its not gonna happen! (Even though physically it’ll fit).
  6. I spoke with Shimano about the retrofit – basically as far as they’re concerned its not gonna happen! (Even though physically it’ll fit).

    I guess they are afraid to piss off the bike manufacturers. Enabling upgrade to ep8 would mean less sales for the bike makers. Angry bike manufacturers might just opt for different motor makers in the future…

  7. I spoke with Shimano about the retrofit – basically as far as they’re concerned its not gonna happen! (Even though physically it’ll fit).

    Yup. But individual bike manufacturers could offer kits to do so. Might require different cover, adapter for the wiring harness, etc…

  8. The mounting system is the same but the wiring is different, meaning even if you could get hold of an EP8 to retrofit, it wouldnt be plug an play

    Your telling me, they couldn’t sell a wiring harness too? .. but as I noted and Rob has again confirmed, shimano are a faceless corp who couldn’t care less

    I guess they are afraid to piss off the bike manufacturers. Enabling upgrade to ep8 would mean less sales for the bike makers. Angry bike manufacturers might just opt for different motor makers in the future…

    @remosito I’d disagree, I’d buy bike from "bobs bikes" if I knew I could definitely upgrade the motor later, and you’d buy with the knowledge that if you decided to change frame, the value would be solid.

  9. What is the warranty – two years, original owner non rolling ?

    What is it like re rebuildability, is it a sealed unit or is it rebuildable by specialists, are they providing rebuild spares (bearings etc) and technical documentation on how to rebuild.

    What happens at 2.5 years old, say 2500 miles when the bearings go ?

  10. shimano are a faceless corp who couldn’t care less

    Unlike Bosch, who tuck you in at night and send you Christmas cards?

    None of these companies want to be your friend – there’s nothing unique to Shimano in this.

  11. @KeithR I didn’t say they weren’t.. I suggested Shimano could do themselves a huge favour by being less corp douchbags and more customer friendly. A rolling 2 year warranty from Bosch is not to be sneezed at, nor Spesh’s choice to stand behind their customers, and they receive great feedback because if this.
  12. Pretty sure Shimano have a rolling 2 year warranty – I had a new e8000 motor under warranty last year and it came with a fresh 2 year warranty
  13. One other question for @knut7 and @Rob Rides EMTB : does the new app let the end user FINALLY set their own wheel circumference? I switch between 29" and 27.5", as well as different 27.5" tires. It is ridiculous that this isn’t user settable in the existing eTube app.
  14. Was patiently waiting for EP8 bikes but I think that coasting clatter is a dealbreaker for me if its a feature of the motor.

    Thx for the reviews (y)

  15. So if this new motor has built in detection,that may kill sales as lots love to fiddle with the speed limit.
    Just trying a planet3 type Gizmo will invalidate warranty.
  16. The key thing for me is that it retains the natural feel of power delivery that the E8000 has – personally I have always loved the Shimano as it IMO most accurately mimics the pedal inputs and riding style of a normal bike, I find most of the other motors have the power come on in what to me is not a natural feeling way, primarily with too much power in the initial pedal strokes. I still ride normal bikes a lot and with the Shimano its just like jumping on another bike but assisted, whereas with the Bosch for example it just doesn’t feel like a natural amplification of normal riding, but something totally different, and this gives me a slightly disconnected feel from the bike – neither is right or wrong, but thats my preference.
  17. Not really the great leap forward I’d been hoping for. The rattling, anti tamper software and still lacking bearing serviceability all negatives for me. Picking up my E-Sommet with new motor under warranty tomorrow, had been hoping it would be an EP8 but not bothered now!
  18. Everyone asking if they can upgrade their E8000 to the new EP8…

    …what I’m more interested in is if the new SC-EM800 display is backward-compatible with E8000, and if there’s any new trickle-down features in the E-Tube app.

  19. Everyone asking if they can upgrade their E8000 to the new EP8…

    …what I’m more interested in is if the new SC-EM800 display is backward-compatible with E8000, and if there’s any new trickle-down features in the E-Tube app.

    Yeah, this is interesting, and it could be possible. There are two new displays for the EP8, the SC-EM800 and the Bosch Purion-style SC-E5003. These will connect to prevoius motors (E8000, 7000, 6100, 5000) using some sort of conversion adapter. I haven’t found this adapter on the Shimano website yet. It would be really cool if this allowed us to use the new E-Tube app with extra tweaking options and two user profiles. I will be looking into this.

  20. What I’m most interested in is how much climbing does the new motor and battery allow. Currently I’ve got a ’20 Commencal Meta Power 29 and can do around 4,250ft or 1300m on the 504wh bike. That’s using a bit of trail and mostly eco. Since the battery is 25% bigger I’d assume to get at least that much more climbing but if Shimano is claiming increased efficiency and less drag I am quite curious if that will allow even more vertical to be climbed per charged. The battery size is probably my biggest complaint of my ’20 Meta Power.

    Also I have quite a bit of clutch noise on this bike. My ’19 Meta Power was quieter on that. I bought this bike used else I’d pursue warranty regarding the clutch noise but I’ve learned to live with it although I go to great lengths to create a quiet bike.

  21. G day Knut

    Thanks for taking the time .
    I have been a fan of your You Tube channel for some time . I like your attention to details .

    Keep up the good work .

  22. It does feel just as natural as the E8000. Very much so. The Trail setting means it’s pretty much fire and forget all day. Didn’t fiddle with the app as it wasn’t out at the time, but it looks great.

    Also, the W013 error has been fixed so feet on the pedals at startup doesn’t throw an error. I did get an error if you pedal as you start up so not totally fixed but much better.

    I wouldn’t say it feels as powerful as the Bosch or the Brose as it’s not as ‘punchy’ but if you like a natural feeling bike, that’s going to please you.

    It’s a gnats cock away from being brilliant, just the rattling is quite annoying as it seems worse on flat bumpy fire roads and roots.

  23. I love how they say the bearings aren’t serviceable. You don’t have to search hard to find people with play in the cranks on the old motor after relatively little time. I guess you just throw these motors away like you throw a LED bulb away that also claims to last forever.
  24. So if this new motor has built in detection,that may kill sales as lots love to fiddle with the speed limit.
    Just trying a planet3 type Gizmo will invalidate warranty.

    In the EU manufacturers are expected to add anti tamper functionality now, every new motor released will have it in Europe at least.

  25. I love how they say the bearings aren’t serviceable. You don’t have to search hard to find people with play in the cranks on the old motor after relatively little time. I guess you just throw these motors away like you throw a LED bulb away that also claims to last forever.

    I know, we need to get @Gary on an EP8 equipped bike asap and see how quickly he can break the new bearings… ;):LOL:

  26. In the EU manufacturers are expected to add anti tamper functionality now, every new motor released will have it in Europe at least.

    I don’t know of any current main manufacturer motors that don’t aggressively seek out tampering and punish the rider for it.

  27. I know, we need to get @Gary on an EP8 equipped bike asap and see how quickly he can break the new bearings… ;):LOL:

    #GoFundGary
    #youknowitmakessense

    just the rattling is quite annoying as it seems worse on flat bumpy fire roads and roots.

    is it actually a rattle or just the same engagement/disengagement knock the E8000 has when the chainring goes from rotating to under power to freewheeling and vice versa? this happens a lot over rough ground partly because of suspension induced chaingrowth and partly because of less than free freehub mechanisms – if you video’d an E8000 crank freewheeling from the driveside you’d see the chainring actually rotate forwards a few teeth at a time. it even does it on smooth surfaces at high speed
    I guess if Shimano have reduced the EP8s drag even more than almost non existant drag of the E8000 this could be contributing to this happening even more.

  28. I don’t know of any current main manufacturer motors that don’t aggressively seek out tampering and punish the rider for it.

    Sadly they are following EU law. They don’t want to do it any more than you want it, believe me!

    Speaking to a couple of the manufacturer’s someone has to sign off the bike as a design lead, and if it’s deemed they didn’t do everything they could to stop it being de-restricted and someone, god forbid, kills someone etc they personally end up liable. Sucks.

  29. Hey look Brose! No plastic gears…

    I like the semi-natural feel of the E8k. I think its good to let a year pass before jumping onto new product release’s.

  30. Watched the videos again… not too thrilled, kind of disappointed – although I happen to be an E-8000 owner who’s perfectly happy with it (not wondering if I could upgrade for the small bump in performance) and not so much riding the EP8 hype train.

    So far from all the info I’ve read/seen here and from other reviews/previews, there’s a major failure here – the clunking noise.

    "Shimano is aware of this rattling noise; they’re basically saying this is a compromise they have to accept in order to make the motor good in other areas"

    WHAT?

    The fact that Shimano said they are fully aware of it and said it is a compromise is right. From the videos, it sounds like parts are loose! And saying "well the Bosch makes the same noise" doesn’t excuse it – it doesn’t matter what flaws other motors have.

  31. That is disappointing regarding the retro fit – I have them same question though. What if you need a replacement motor? They have to offer it if the 8000 is discontinued. Also although it seems worse on the EP8 I’m really surprised of this ‘news’ of the rattle noise. I purchased a Meta Power SX with the E8000 last year and contacted the agent after one ride as I thought there was something wrong with it the rattle was so loud.
  32. I think we all have to remember that we are still at the Genisis of EMTB, the bikes, the motors, the software and indeed the legislation of the bikes is still evolving constantly.

    Its important to remember that its everything that surround the motor, i.e the bike itself, thats the most important part – we are lucky in that we now have 6 or 7 really good motor systems, that all do the job, but may have foibles.

    My main concern with the emtb market in general is that we still dont see too many bikes where designers have looked to ignore conventional design and look at how to design and EMTB optimised for riding over one that looks like a normal bike as much as possible – the La Pierre GLP being an example of outside the box thinking. Trying to make an EMTB look as much as possible like a normal mtb leads to compromises in handling/weight/packaging etc on a lot of bikes.

    E.G I am sure many brands could make a better bike if they stuck with the external battery, but market forces dictate they have to go with the internal.

  33. Is the e8000 actually discontinued though? My impression is that it isn’t, its just superseded at the top of the motor range by the EP8. @knut7 or @Rob Rides EMTB are you able to shed any light on this?

    Also is the new app compatible with the E8/7000 motors? And the new software going tope accessible to them?

    From a personal perspective I am glad I stuck with my Vitus, and it looks like I will stick with it for a bit longer – I will upgrade to the new 630wh external battery as this is easily retrofittable to the bike when it comes out, but stick with using the 504wh battery for most rides, but loving the fact I now have the option of different battery sizes that can be easily swapped out depending on the ride I am doing, which is something I have wanted from an EMTB for a long time – I only wish there was a lightweight 350wh is battery available too

  34. Shimano told me the E8000 was being discontinued. They’ll keep some for warranty but won’t continue producing them.
  35. Shimano told me the E8000 was being discontinued. They’ll keep some for warranty but won’t continue producing them.

    Interesting – I presume this means some other motors in the works? Or are they just going with the single motor across all applications now

  36. If they’re discontinuing the E8000 then surely they will have to produce a way to upgrade, if they’re keeping "some" for warranty what happens when they run out? If someones E8000 goes pop after that?
    I’ve just got a Decoy and I’m not bothered about changing the motor as it’s plenty grin-inducing for me right now but I’m thinking longer term like 18 months down the road, especially as I don’t give any of my kit an easy time.
  37. I find it hard to believe that theyll have stock of e8000’s for warrantee. Where are these imaginary motors? They havent had stock in canada for atleast a month and a half for warrantee. Even with international shipping as slow as it is right now, a month and a half is long enough for a national distributor to restock whats needed. Is there a final production round happening? Seems unlikely they could produce enough to cover all the existing units sold with a final production round. Why arent shimano addressing any of these qudstions people have? Bit of a ponzi scheme with these guys
  38. Shimano told me the E8000 was being discontinued. They’ll keep some for warranty but won’t continue producing them.

    I do not like the sound of that!
    As @Dirtnvert said, stocks of the e8000 are already low. What am I supposed to do with my bike if I can’t get a motor and it’s not repairable. If that happened I would never buy a bike with a Shimano motor, ever again. If they can do this once, they will do it again.
    Thinking about it for a little bit longer, I would extend my personal ban from just motors to a bike with any Shimano kit of any kind!
    Shimano need to get on top of this! :mad:

  39. Annoyingly I doubt they’ll care about a few pissed off existing customers, just think of all the new ones they’ll be getting for the shiny new motor, people who are unaware of any long term issues.
  40. Annoyingly I doubt they’ll care about a few pissed off existing customers, just think of all the new ones they’ll be getting for the shiny new motor, people who are unaware of any long term issues.

    It’s not just a few existing customers. The entire current customer base, built up since the intro of Shimano motors are potential repeat purchasers. Why piss them off unnecessarily? If sufficiently pissed off they may stop buying ALL Shimano products; there are so many competitors it’s easy to do.

  41. It’s not just a few existing customers. The entire current customer base, built up since the intro of Shimano motors are potential repeat purchasers. Why piss them off unnecessarily? If sufficiently pissed off they may stop buying ALL Shimano products; there are so many competitors it’s easy to do.

    I appreciate you are angry but you are blowing it up a bit too much. We dont know anything about when they will stop producing E8000 or how many they have, but Shimano are not in the business of not being able to satisfy warranty requirements, given it is a legal obligation and the people who will be put out are the bike shops (shimanos actual customers that they do have to care about) as your contract is with the shop and if they cant get a motor they have to give you a working bike at their cost. In the future can you buy a E8000 out of warrenty? maybe stocks will be hard to find, but they arnt exactly simple to buy right now. And if it comes to the worst and you cant pay your own money for an E8000, the E7000 will fit right in its place. Maybe a downgrade but its not a total loss.

  42. It’s not just a few existing customers. The entire current customer base, built up since the intro of Shimano motors are potential repeat purchasers. Why piss them off unnecessarily? If sufficiently pissed off they may stop buying ALL Shimano products; there are so many competitors it’s easy to do.

    True, it would help if they weren’t so secretive, they must know an approximate failure rate for the e8000, maybe they will stockpile enough to cover that…

    Like a lot on here, I’ve been waiting for news on the new motor and while it does appear slightly better than the Bosch for me I’m not that bothered about switching to what appears to be a brand with better customer service.

  43. Unlike Bosch, who tuck you in at night and send you Christmas cards?

    None of these companies want to be your friend – there’s nothing unique to Shimano in this.

    Ur forgetting specialized. They give complementary blow job’s whilst doing routine motor changes . So yeah they care alot

  44. For what it’s worth just picked up my Vitus from the shop with a new E8000 fitted, Madison UK got a delivery last week. As I said I’m quite relieved it’s not an EP8!

    Was told it should have a new 2 year warranty but not got that in writing, think I’ll drop Madison an email and ask them to confirm

  45. App has been updated. Just tried it. Pretty neat.

    Except that it isn’t reliable and fails most of the time. It’s a buggy piece of sh*t. Can’t create an ID or log in. Just hangs. Shimano needs to get software development moved to the EU or the USA.

  46. Don’t install the new app and update firmware it will brick your bike!! Rob you should warn people not to do it.
  47. Hows it feel pedaling with no assist compared to the Brose and the SL motors?

    Enjoying my SL but ride with power off alot. Wouldnt mind the option for more power and stil be able to ride analog untill im gassed. For reference, can get up well over 20mph on the sl stock on flat ground.

    when I rode a heckler once i hit 20 it felt dramatically harder to accelerate on flat ground. No measures but it was NOT encouraging. The Levo felt similar.

    shimano claims a 30% reduction in drag. Is that enough to bridge the gap between E8000/brose motors and the SL when riding w/o assist?

  48. I appreciate you are angry but you are blowing it up a bit too much. We dont know anything about when they will stop producing E8000 or how many they have, but Shimano are not in the business of not being able to satisfy warranty requirements, given it is a legal obligation and the people who will be put out are the bike shops (shimanos actual customers that they do have to care about) as your contract is with the shop and if they cant get a motor they have to give you a working bike at their cost. In the future can you buy a E8000 out of warrenty? maybe stocks will be hard to find, but they arnt exactly simple to buy right now. And if it comes to the worst and you cant pay your own money for an E8000, the E7000 will fit right in its place. Maybe a downgrade but its not a total loss.

    No not angry, disappointed with Shimano yes. They should be making things a lot clearer and communicating better. You are correct that it is the manufacturers and the retailers that pay Shimano’s invoices, but it is the end user who is the ultimate customer. Yes, Shimano have to work with the manufacturers to help with bike design and for them to input on design requirements. They also have to work with the retailers and put together a good retail proposition. And both have to have some sort of warranty cover. But Shimano has to stay in touch with its ultimate customer and keep them happy. I would not be at all surprised if Shimano was also doing end user surveys into what they actually want and think. If every customer refused to have anything to do with Shimano, they would soon be guaranteeing to maintain stocks of e8000. The auto manufacturers keep spares for 10 years, how long will Shimano and others in their position be keeping spares?

    I confess that when I hear that the EP8 was not backwards compatible, my heart sank a bit. I’m now in the weird position of almost hoping my motor will fail before the two years are up and I can get a new e8000 motor out of it. But there is no sign of failure yet, which is why I have been singing Shimano’s praises so far.

    If my motor fails outside warranty and I have to pay for a new motor, OK fair enough. Sad, but not angry at all.
    If my motor fails outside warranty and I cannot buy a replacement, then I will be angry!

  49. No not angry, disappointed with Shimano yes. They should be making things a lot clearer and communicating better. You are correct that it is the manufacturers and the retailers that pay Shimano’s invoices, but it is the end user who is the ultimate customer. Yes, Shimano have to work with the manufacturers to help with bike design and for them to input on design requirements. They also have to work with the retailers and put together a good retail proposition. And both have to have some sort of warranty cover. But Shimano has to stay in touch with its ultimate customer and keep them happy. I would not be at all surprised if Shimano was also doing end user surveys into what they actually want and think. If every customer refused to have anything to do with Shimano, they would soon be guaranteeing to maintain stocks of e8000. The auto manufacturers keep spares for 10 years, how long will Shimano and others in their position be keeping spares?

    I confess that when I hear that the EP8 was not backwards compatible, my heart sank a bit. I’m now in the weird position of almost hoping my motor will fail before the two years are up and I can get a new e8000 motor out of it. But there is no sign of failure yet, which is why I have been singing Shimano’s praises so far.

    If my motor fails outside warranty and I have to pay for a new motor, OK fair enough. Sad, but not angry at all.
    If my motor fails outside warranty and I cannot buy a replacement, then I will be angry!

    No doubt a refurbishment company will pop up at this point @Bearing Man will most likely be your point of call outside of warranty.

  50. If my motor fails outside warranty and I have to pay for a new motor, OK fair enough. Sad, but not angry at all.
    If my motor fails outside warranty and I cannot buy a replacement, then I will be angry!

    But as has been stated, E7000 will be available. This is standard industry approach of discontinuing the top-end stuff when new top-end stuff comes along, and supporting the older market with mid-level kit. You cant easily buy previous generation XTR once new stuff comes out, very little XT, but SLX and Deore hangs around for a while. I fully appreciate with a motor the performance difference is obviously different for motors, than talking about crank stiffness or 20gram weight differences, but the practice is the same.

  51. Also id like to know more about what isnt backwards compatible?
    What do they mean wiring harness? the wire to the battery, the speed sensor, the head unit? is the new switch not compatible, or old ones not work with EP8? Its not clear at all.
  52. I think its all pretty clear

    New motor uses existing mounting system, aim of this is to make life easy for manufacturers to update their line ups without major design changes.

    Wont be available to buy after market

    EP8 ecosystem uses new wiring and connectors that aren’t compatible with existing, but adaptors are available to enable with use of some components within existing Steps ecosystem.

    If you where able to get hold of an EP8 then you would have to also re wire the bike too, again not much of a hassle, but you couldnt use the existing connectors.

    The setting of the torque sensor is, I believe, to do with the angle the motor is mounted in the frame, but I may be wrong on this – I know within the Shimano service software there is a setting for this.

  53. I think its all pretty clear

    New motor uses existing mounting system, aim of this is to make life easy for manufacturers to update their line ups without major design changes.

    Wont be available to buy after market

    EP8 ecosystem uses new wiring and connectors that aren’t compatible with existing, but adaptors are available to enable with use of some components within existing Steps ecosystem.

    If you where able to get hold of an EP8 then you would have to also re wire the bike too, again not much of a hassle, but you couldnt use the existing connectors.

    The setting of the torque sensor is, I believe, to do with the angle the motor is mounted in the frame, but I may be wrong on this – I know within the Shimano service software there is a setting for this.

    I have a message in to the CEO of one of the bike manufacturers that uses Shimano drive systems to discuss the feasibility of them offering an upgrade kit for existing bikes (drive unit, wiring adapters, covers/guards, etc).

  54. Personally I am very happy with the E8000, as I have said before its how the bike handles and rides that is most important to me, the only thing I really care about at this moment in time is the ability to run different size batteries depending on what ride I am doing, and luckily for me they have covered that with the new 630wh external battery. All these motors get you uphill in the way you want, and as long as the software doesn’t make it ride horribly they are fit for purpose.

    Whilst having more power is always nice, I never use boost, always just stick the bike in trail and go ride, and I cant say that I have ever been in a situation where I though "if only the bike had a bit more grunt…"

    Really the software the motors run is far more important to the user experience, and how the power is delivered, I happen to like the way the e8000 delivers its power in what is a relatively subtle way compared to some of the other motors, but at the end of the day I would always choose a bike based off how it rides rather than the motor in it.

    Thats why if I was in the market for a bike right now, despite my presence for the Shimano system, I would go for the Whyte e160 with the Bosch, simply because of all the new bikes I have tried it was the most fun. Luckily for my bank balance it wasn’t any more fun than my Vitus!

  55. Personally I am very happy with the E8000, as I have said before its how the bike handles and rides that is most important to me, the only thing I really care about at this moment in time is the ability to run different size batteries depending on what ride I am doing, and luckily for me they have covered that with the new 630wh external battery. All these motors get you uphill in the way you want, and as long as the software doesn’t make it ride horribly they are fit for purpose.

    Whilst having more power is always nice, I never use boost, always just stick the bike in trail and go ride, and I cant say that I have ever been in a situation where I though "if only the bike had a bit more grunt…"

    Really the software the motors run is far more important to the user experience, and how the power is delivered, I happen to like the way the e8000 delivers its power in what is a relatively subtle way compared to some of the other motors, but at the end of the day I would always choose a bike based off how it rides rather than the motor in it.

    Thats why if I was in the market for a bike right now, despite my presence for the Shimano system, I would go for the Whyte e160 with the Bosch, simply because of all the new bikes I have tried it was the most fun. Luckily for my bank balance it wasn’t any more fun than my Vitus!

    My major complaint with the E8000 and the existing Shimano software/firmware/approach is the way power cuts off prematurely (at 18.0-18.5 MPH). Supposedly that has been tweaked a bit with the EP800. I do wish it had more "top end".

  56. But as has been stated, E7000 will be available. This is standard industry approach of discontinuing the top-end stuff when new top-end stuff comes along, and supporting the older market with mid-level kit. You cant easily buy previous generation XTR once new stuff comes out, very little XT, but SLX and Deore hangs around for a while. I fully appreciate with a motor the performance difference is obviously different for motors, than talking about crank stiffness or 20gram weight differences, but the practice is the same.

    Comparing Shimano’s obsolescence procedures of XTR with the e8000 motor might be the same practice, but the impact is not the same at all. Your old XTR mech breaks, fine replace it with the new one. It will still bolt on to your mech hanger and it will still work with the rest of the bike. You will still get all the benefits of the XTR proposition. You will not be forced to use an inferior product as an alternative to scrapping the bike. And don’t forget that even the inferior e7000 motor is many many times the cost of an XTR mech.

  57. I would imagine they will honour the warranty on the system as long as it is valid. It’s probably being discontinued to manufacturers to encourage them to use the EP8 on new releases, and there’s no reason not to with the bolts etc being in the same place.

    I really can’t see them walking away from the system completely for existing users..? Maybe if it goes kaput in 4 years time you may have to get an EP8 and it’s been established how to do the upgrade.

    There’s many a clever person on the forum who will no doubt work it out..

  58. I would imagine they will honour the warranty on the system as long as it is valid. It’s probably being discontinued to manufacturers to encourage them to use the EP8 on new releases, and there’s no reason not to with the bolts etc being in the same place.

    I really can’t see them walking away from the system completely for existing users..? Maybe if it goes kaput in 4 years time you may have to get an EP8 and it’s been established how to do the upgrade.

    There’s many a clever person on the forum who will no doubt work it out..

    Shimano have had plenty of time to work out what their position is. They are a massive company and have the resources to prepare their policy and to communicate it. They have failed to do so, so far. Poor effort!

    This should not be left to some clever person on the forum to address.

  59. Still would like to know how much vertical climbing can be obtained with the EP8 and 630wh battery.

    Has it been confirmed if the new 630wh internal battery can be used on E8000 internal battery bikes? I see mention in the past of no, but R120 above says an external 630wh will work on a E8000 bike.

    I’m fine with my ’20 Meta Power but want more battery for more vertical. Would love to do 8k ft climbing days regularly.

  60. Still would like to know how much vertical climbing can be obtained with the EP8 and 630wh battery.

    Has it been confirmed if the new 630wh internal battery can be used on E8000 internal battery bikes? I see mention in the past of no, but R120 above says an external 630wh will work on a E8000 bike.

    I’m fine with my ’20 Meta Power but want more battery for more vertical. Would love to do 8k ft climbing days regularly.

    Yes the new internal batteries will technical work with the e8000, the restricting factor is if your bike can take the new battery, which is unlikely.The Singletrack video has some good info on elevation and range – also interesting use of the new walk mode!

  61. Browsing the latest this morning, I’m kind of glad there’s a lot of people speaking up with the disappointment of the EP8 across a bunch of media channels. Especially the part about how (unless Shimano officially addresses the concern) it seems like they just turned their backs on all the E8000 owners.

    Also, the new E-Tube app looks a lot better – but has issues. I tried testing last night, whenever I went to adjust assist modes I kept getting this screen, then if I try getting out of this screen the app crashes:

    View attachment 39421

    With the old E-Tube app (luckily I didn’t update yet on my other devices) I connected to the same eMTB perfectly fine and could change assist modes with no problems.

  62. I’ve just watched the EMBN video, disappointed that there was no mention of the rattle by them…

    Sponsored content, do they (Steve) ever say anything bad? I used to watch it but cant be bothered to sit through it now.

    Yes the new internal batteries will technical work with the e8000, the restricting factor is if your bike can take the new battery, which is unlikely.The Singletrack video has some good info on elevation and range – also interesting use of the new walk mode!

    I like how he compared that his EP8 had battery left when riding against an E8000 Merida…. presumably forgetting the 603Wh his bike has over the 504Wh that the other bike is supplied with :ROFLMAO:

  63. No it definitely seems louder than that..

    Have a listen…

    It does from the video. But still hard to tell what it really sounds like as gopro recordings never sound (to me) like real riding sounds anyway.
    The frequency of the rattle seems similar to chainslap chatter.
    How quietened were the chain stays on that merida?
    Chainslap is just one of the reasons I tend to run far smaller range cassettes than most folk. (smaller sprockets = shorter chain = quieter bike)

  64. Sponsored content, do they (Steve) ever say anything bad? I used to watch it but cant be bothered to sit through it now.

    LOL Steve is one of the biggest ass-kissers I’ve seen on YouTube when it comes to sponsored content.
    Same guy who likes arguing with viewers because he thinks he knows everything.
    I started being selective about which EMTB videos to watch because of his attitude.

  65. It does from the video. But still hard to tell what it really sounds like as gopro recordings never sound (to me) like real riding sounds anyway.
    The frequency of the rattle seems similar to chainslap chatter.
    How quietened were the chain stays on that merida?
    Chainslap is just one of the reasons I tend to run far smaller range cassettes than most folk. (smaller sprockets = shorter chain = quieter bike)

    Check from 8:20 on the vid and see what you think – it’s definitely coming from the motor.

  66. Sponsored content, do they (Steve) ever say anything bad? I used to watch it but cant be bothered to sit through it now.

    Rob’s video was sponsored as well, at least he tells us how it is. They do say they’re not a review channel though, more of an information one.

  67. Check from 8:20 on the vid and see what you think – it’s definitely coming from the motor.

    I agree with your video Rob… there are a lot of improvements with the new EP8… but I don’t think that means they get a pass on the obvious noise issue that everyone can easily hear (and you showed in the video).

    Decouplers aren’t new tech, it’s been done without noise in other applications outside of MTB. What is worse with the EP8 is not just that there is that noise, but because it sounds like someone dropped screws inside the motor casing and left them there!

    "Yes, I want a rattling motor" said no one.

  68. It’s not just a few existing customers. The entire current customer base, built up since the intro of Shimano motors are potential repeat purchasers. Why piss them off unnecessarily? If sufficiently pissed off they may stop buying ALL Shimano products; there are so many competitors it’s easy to do.

    I can’t see any evidence that this is the case as they also piss off bike manufacturers who if this is the case will swap types of motor used.

    I think this is forum over reaction and warrantee replacements will be available.

  69. Yes the new internal batteries will technical work with the e8000, the restricting factor is if your bike can take the new battery, which is unlikely.The Singletrack video has some good info on elevation and range – also interesting use of the new walk mode!

    So not likely for older internal battery bikes as the new 630 wh battery is bigger than the old 504wh battery from what I’ve read. Bummer.

    Still, need to know what kind of vert this system can climb! Levos with the 700wh battery can do 7-8,000k ft which is seeming to be the top standard.

  70. So not likely for older internal battery bikes as the new 630 wh battery is bigger than the old 504wh battery from what I’ve read. Bummer.

    Still, need to know what kind of vert this system can climb! Levos with the 700wh battery can do 7-8,000k ft which is seeming to be the top standard.

    I got 28 miles and 3000ft before mine died.

    draggy DD MaxxGrip tyres though.

  71. I got 28 miles and 3000ft before mine died.

    draggy DD MaxxGrip tyres though.

    Interesting. Was that from a full charge? I ask as I can get about 4000ft or 1300m on my 504 E8000 bike with Maxxgrip DH casing tires and front and rear CushCore. That’s here in CO which is pretty steep climbing. That’s a bit of Eco and then Trail on middle setting in e-tube

  72. Yeah thats interesting because its not far off from what I get at the moment – I think the best I have got out of mine with 3000ft of climbing is about 26 miles, mostly in trail mode.

    It would be interesting to know how the extra wight negates the range – my bike is around 21kg, so going up to a 24kg bike with a bigger battery wouldnt get me a substantial increase is suspect.

    Will be interesting to see what range I get out of the external 630wh battery – it will push the weight up of the bike to just under 23kg from my man maths and what info is online.

  73. Hmmm, I’m still getting used to how best to use my bosch gen 4 with 625wh battery. But as examples :-

    Ride a: 20 miles with 3200 feet of climbing, whole ride done in a combo of emtb and turbo, I had 27% left.

    Ride b: 30miles with 3200 feet of climbing, mostly eco and tour with a small amount of emtb and turbo, I had 47% left.

    This is on an orbea wild fs with maxxis max terra tyres.

    My figures seem a lot better than robs with the ep8, which is surprising, I’d expect them to be largely similar.

  74. its only really possible to compare range with the same rider, same tires, and the same route, of course you would have to try and ride in compatible modes too. I have a friend with a Jam2 with the 370wh battery, and he gets same range than me on my bike mainly because he weighs a lot less, and the bike does too.

    Interestingly I get a fair bit more range on my hardtail than my FS, which I reckon has something to do with the drivetrain efficiency of a hardtail. Both bikes have same motor, battery and tires, though the hardtail weighs about a kilo less.

  75. Rider weight, tires, bike weight and then how hard a rider pedals are probably the big variables here. I’m not too surprised to hear that a HT is more efficient with regards to the battery usage than a dually. I would imagine that some motors are more efficient; could be a question of better tolerances of all components of the motor, bearings, gears, etc.
  76. Comparing Shimano’s obsolescence procedures of XTR with the e8000 motor might be the same practice, but the impact is not the same at all. Your old XTR mech breaks, fine replace it with the new one. It will still bolt on to your mech hanger and it will still work with the rest of the bike. You will still get all the benefits of the XTR proposition. You will not be forced to use an inferior product as an alternative to scrapping the bike. And don’t forget that even the inferior e7000 motor is many many times the cost of an XTR mech.

    ^^this x one million. E7000 replacement for an e8000 is not exceptable. Less nm’s and less durable. They shouldve shelved 7000 and made some improvemenys to 8000 and made that the defacto mid range motor and warranty replacement for 8000’s an under.
    And whats with the corporate bootlicking from some members. We need to adopt the skateboarding/bmx ethos of supporting bike companies owned by real riders, all suits exluded.

  77. The way I understand the Discontinuation of the E8000

    – No more motors will be sold to OEM’s as the EP8 has superseded it.
    – E8000 motors will still be available for warranty claims

    Happens in many industries when a new model / version of a product is released.

    It doesn’t mean it’s obsolete. It’ll still be supported. Just not supplied on new bikes for MY21 and beyond.

  78. The way I understand the Discontinuation of the E8000

    – No more motors will be sold to OEM’s as the EP8 has superseded it.
    – E8000 motors will still be available for warranty claims

    Happens in many industries when a new model / version of a product is released.

    It doesn’t mean it’s obsolete. It’ll still be supported. Just not supplied on new bikes for MY21 and beyond.

    That makes sense but shimano are less than forthcoming on the subject.
    They dumped a boat load of $ in advertising yesterday and not a peep on support or durability. There had to have been atleast 4 shimano yt vids and atlest that many shimanoebike ig posts yesterday not to mention all the youtuber reviews

  79. Watched the videos again… not too thrilled, kind of disappointed – although I happen to be an E-8000 owner who’s perfectly happy with it (not wondering if I could upgrade for the small bump in performance) and not so much riding the EP8 hype train.

    So far from all the info I’ve read/seen here and from other reviews/previews, there’s a major failure here – the clunking noise.

    WHAT?

    The fact that Shimano said they are fully aware of it and said it is a compromise is right. From the videos, it sounds like parts are loose! And saying "well the Bosch makes the same noise" doesn’t excuse it – it doesn’t matter what flaws other motors have.

    yup after 3450 miles of hard riding this year so far, my e8000 has been perfect in all weather and trail conditions. I’ll give ep8 another year…

    heck I may even go e7000 if I buy the new Kona remote 130 when available.

  80. If they’re discontinuing the E8000 then surely they will have to produce a way to upgrade, if they’re keeping "some" for warranty what happens when they run out? If someones E8000 goes pop after that?
    I’ve just got a Decoy and I’m not bothered about changing the motor as it’s plenty grin-inducing for me right now but I’m thinking longer term like 18 months down the road, especially as I don’t give any of my kit an easy time.

    e7000

  81. The way I understand the Discontinuation of the E8000

    – No more motors will be sold to OEM’s as the EP8 has superseded it.
    – E8000 motors will still be available for warranty claims

    Happens in many industries when a new model / version of a product is released.

    It doesn’t mean it’s obsolete. It’ll still be supported. Just not supplied on new bikes for MY21 and beyond.

    Rob, correct me if I’m wrong but hasn’t yamaha / giant just done a similar thing? The pwx2 quietly replaced the pwx1 in 2020 , if a pre 2019 pwx dies under warranty Giant puts in a 2020 pwx2 AND associated wiring harness. We just haven’t yet heard from customers who have killed a pwx outside of warranty and needed to fund this themselves.

    Sadly , very few people are likely to be paying to keep > 2 year old emtb’s running when the magic smoke escapes outside of warranty, but it’d be really nice to think that was possible.

  82. Is the EP8 a "factory sealed unit" or can it be serviced ? I.e. can bearings etc be replaced. This would be the biggest leap in faith.

    A far more important factor, IMHO than torque levels software support etc.

    I’m coming up to the end of the warranty period on my 8000 and hoping nothing happens to it as sounds like they may run out of 8000 units pretty fast and render my bike a write off if Shim won’t sell a stand alone EP8 to keep my trusty Ranger alive. an E7000 would feel very different.

    Won’t be rushing out to buy a bike with the EP8 motor to replace my 8000. If I want more hill climbing (torque) capability I’ll replace the 11-42 with 11-50 rear cassette. STUnlocker is way better than the Shim app with ability to feather motor output in each support level. Even change wheel size. No clatter when coasting. Efficient use of battery if using STU. 300g lighter ? Thats less than my water bottle ;-).

    Evolution certainly no revolution.

    Jules

  83. Is the EP8 a "factory sealed unit" or can it be serviced ? I.e. can bearings etc be replaced. This would be the biggest leap in faith.

    A far more important factor, IMHO than torque levels software support etc.

    I’m coming up to the end of the warranty period on my 8000 and hoping nothing happens to it as sounds like they may run out of 8000 units pretty fast and render my bike a write off if Shim won’t sell a stand alone EP8 to keep my trusty Ranger alive. an E7000 would feel very different.

    Won’t be rushing out to buy a bike with the EP8 motor to replace my 8000. If I want more hill climbing (torque) capability I’ll replace the 11-42 with 11-50 rear cassette. STUnlocker is way better than the Shim app with ability to feather motor output in each support level. Even change wheel size. No clatter when coasting. Efficient use of battery if using STU. 300g lighter ? Thats less than my water bottle ;-).

    Evolution certainly no revolution.

    Jules

    Nope, per the article:

    As on the E8000, the crank axle bearings are not replaceable. Shimano says these are high grade sealed bearings that doesn’t need replacing. They also talk a bit about anti-tuning and anti-tampering. Any attempts to alter or trick the cut-off speed will be stored in the motor. The dealers will see this flag in their software. If this happens, the warranty will be void and they cannot service the motor.

  84. mmmmm…..bearings being a moving part are normally designed to be replaced as per BB, Frame set, car wheels, bushings etc.

    You can pull a Banfang motor apart mind.

    Onward and upward.

  85. Sounds like real progress to me. E8000 power is fine already so a little more is ace, good that the motor now decouples (personally I would put up with a little noise as a trade off) and good to that the weight is down and efficiency is up and that the software is improved. No way I want one until somebody has hacked it though (crossed fingers). Only other issue I have is with the big move to internal batteries… the Shimano internal 504Wh reverses the weight saving made on the motor so would be saving nothing on changing up. External is so easy too, and the packs are lighter to have in your backpack… currently running 2 X 504Wh and it makes so much sense, even going up to the new 630Wh I think would be a bad move as they have or worse Wh/Kg ratio. Lets see what the new Vitus looks like – hoping its the same geometry, same external pack, new motor and better cable routing.
  86. Anyone know why the internal batteries are heavier than an external one of the same size? this is not just limited to shimano, all the manufacturers internal batteries are heavier than the external. You’d have thought the internal one could be lighter as its protected by the bike frame ,so doesnt need as much protection itself.
  87. I’m testing 8 new EP8 Bikes over the next 5 days. Anything you would like to know let me known

    I’ll be sure to be testing the clattering noise on all of them.

  88. I’m testing 8 new EP8 Bikes over the next 5 days. Anything you would like to know let me known

    I’ll be sure to be testing the clattering noise on all of them.

    Hi Rob: If possible, not only the motor but how/if the new motor/battery has affected the weight distribution, geometry and handling of the bikes. Better technical climbing with more torque? Cornering feel ? Etc. If the motor is lighter having more weight around the BB can actually help in gravity stuff.

    I’m not sure if these 8 bikes had the E8000 previously so you can compare accordingly ?

    Enjoy the testing, jealous – yep 😉

    Jules

  89. I’m testing 8 new EP8 Bikes over the next 5 days. Anything you would like to know let me known

    I’ll be sure to be testing the clattering noise on all of them.

    Any chance you could ask the warranty / after sales service questions?

    Let the manufacturers know the market is thinking about this!!

    Eg How long is the warranty on the motor / is it a rolling warranty / what happens in 2 years when the warranty runs out? Why on earth would we buy your shimano when specialized offer 4 years? ( not that I’d buy spec….but please get footage of mr marketing dude when you ask)

  90. Any chance you could ask the warranty / after sales service questions?

    Let the manufacturers know the market is thinking about this!!

    Eg How long is the warranty on the motor / is it a rolling warranty / what happens in 2 years when the warranty runs out? Why on earth would we buy your shimano when specialized offer 4 years? ( not that I’d buy spec….but please get footage of mr marketing dude when you ask)

    I thought Specialized still only offer 2 years. 4 years is for people with 2018 bike and a motor with specific issues?

    Anyway, questions!

    A clear announcement about motor availability in the future i think is what everyone is asking for though. This doesnt just apply to Shimano, i think this is opening up the question to all manufacturers, how long can i get spares to keep my (rather expensive) bike running?

    Much like modern cars it seems that technology is making them unviable after a certain amount of time, without an extended warranty. So id like someone to start asking how these manufacturers plan to support long term viability, perhaps through extended warranty schemes or similar. Otherwise they are straying towards reduced lifetime and becoming semi-disposable (and reduced s/h value), which makes cost of ownership even more expensive.

  91. @Rob Rides EMTB i think it would be great to see which brand has integrated and clevelry worked with the new sytem best – i.e i am sure some bikes are the same as before but just with the new motor, but i am guessing some others have looked at the packaging possibilities of the new system and thought about that in the design.
  92. I thought Specialized still only offer 2 years. 4 years is for people with 2018 bike and a motor with specific issues?

    4 year warranty on all 2019 and 2020 Turbo Levos & 2020 Kenevos 👍

  93. I’ve just had a new E8000 fitted to my focus jam2 under warranty. Not concerned about next time as I see focus have just released a new jam2 with EP8 motor. Its the exact same bike as mine including the same main battery and tec pac. Only difference is motor, wiring and display/controller. My first motor lasted me 5300kms and 18 months. I’m confident I’ll be able to source an EP8 18 months from now, including wiring etc. At the end of the day, its just "parts" that I know will fit. "Glass half full". Let’s ride!!
  94. Sorry, not a like for like replacement. Shimanos on website states the difference that the E8000 is suitable for "mountainous terrain" and "extreme MTB riding" whereas the E7000 is "Hilly terrain" and "off-road thrills"

    meh drink whatever marketing koolaid you choose. E7000 is more than sufficient

  95. Rob,

    Id appreciate a comparison of the new vs old wiring. Ive seen another review which suggests the cables are narrower, not sure if they meant the port or actual wire.

    I find this quite interesting given it used Di2 ports previously and we are still waiting on 12 speed Di2…. 1+1 = new Di2 will use a different wiring found with EP8?

    The proof i guess will be does the EP8 have a port for Di2 derailleur, and can you even answer that question ;) (given its not been mentioned in any reports ive seen i find that quite interesting).

  96. It’s interesting that both the latest motors released from Bosch and Shimano have this rattle when descending. This adds credence to Shimano’s statement that it is a compromise they’ve decided to make to enhance performance in other areas, but judging by the response online it is going to be a deal breaker for some, perhaps many potential buyers. Rather than us hypothesising I would like to know definitively from Shimano what it is that is causing the rattle and what negatives fixing it would have – reduced drag might be the goal, but if so would many buyers not prefer a bit more drag to this noise?

    PS – For me the most disappointing thing about the EP8 is the lack of serviceable bearings. That was a known issue on the E8000 and E7000, yet they have chosen to do nothing about it, instead chasing the smaller/lighter/more powerful mantra like all the rest. I really don’t like Specialized’s historic ebike business model (extreme premium prices to provide good service for unreliable product, at least in UK conditions) but that Mahle motor in the SL is looking increasingly like the pick of the bunch. If that is in the next gen Levo with uprated power I expect it to be a huge seller…

  97. Copied this from Ebike smile facebook group.

    EP8 news
    Gutted, just been told Shimano are having problems and will not release motor until fixed.
    Email from shop
    I spent yesterday getting an answer from Commencal in regards to the stock, which we’d be informed was 31st August.
    We have now been told that, currently, Shimano are having some issues and are not permitting the motors to be sold until issue is resolved. For that reason Commencal do not have any date for the moment since, they say, it depends on Shimano and not on Commencal.
    So, I’m afraid our options here are limited.
    I’d suggest I refund you and wait until we have some more solid answers from Commencal on when our stock will be arriving.
    22
    9 Comments
    Like

    Comment

  98. It’s interesting that both the latest motors released from Bosch and Shimano have this rattle when descending. This adds credence to Shimano’s statement that it is a compromise they’ve decided to make to enhance performance in other areas, but judging by the response online it is going to be a deal breaker for some, perhaps many potential buyers. Rather than us hypothesising I would like to know definitively from Shimano what it is that is causing the rattle and what negatives fixing it would have – reduced drag might be the goal, but if so would many buyers not prefer a bit more drag to this noise?

    I’ve got the bosch motor and the rattle is such a non issue, I cant believe the fuss being made about it. yes you can hear it, but its not intrusive at all, especially with all the other noises that are going on when you’re flying down a rocky descent.

  99. I’m testing 8 new EP8 Bikes over the next 5 days. Anything you would like to know let me known

    I’ll be sure to be testing the clattering noise on all of them.

    Dont know if it has already been asked, but the one question that people have been asking is the range compared to the E8000 with the same battery?

  100. Rob, correct me if I’m wrong but hasn’t yamaha / giant just done a similar thing? The pwx2 quietly replaced the pwx1 in 2020 , if a pre 2019 pwx dies under warranty Giant puts in a 2020 pwx2 AND associated wiring harness. We just haven’t yet heard from customers who have killed a pwx outside of warranty and needed to fund this themselves.

    Sadly , very few people are likely to be paying to keep > 2 year old emtb’s running when the magic smoke escapes outside of warranty, but it’d be really nice to think that was possible.

    I sure as hell will. It’s expensive and irresponsible to discard a 2 year old MTB just because warranty parts aren’t available. I’m 99% certain there would be a class action lawsuit against Shimano if E8000 replacement motors became scarce.

  101. I’m testing 8 new EP8 Bikes over the next 5 days. Anything you would like to know let me known

    Can you do the "drag strip" – the exact same test you did for the Bosch Firmware update V the Levo ?

    More complicated, but can you do a real world enduro type usage test ?

    IE : Pick a 20-25km loop 1000m total climb . Ride it on an EP8 bike and as similar spec as possible E8000 bike (On subsequent days). IN BOOST !

    Check your times and how much WH you used. This might give some idea of real world performance improvements with regard to the motor putting out power for longer and also give an indication to it being more efficient or not ?

    If you want to make it more interesting and give more data, race @TheBikePilot . Then swap bikes the next day for some interesting metrics.

    You can dress up too. You’ll obviously have to be Robin, so that makes @TheBikePilot Batman ! Unless TBP is older, then he could be Alfred I guess.

  102. I sure as hell will. It’s expensive and irresponsible to discard a 2 year old MTB just because warranty parts aren’t available. I’m 99% certain there would be a class action lawsuit against Shimano if E8000 replacement motors became scarce.

    Now that’s the sort of fighting talk we ought to be using with Shimano! :love:

    Sadly, it is more likely to pay off in the litigious USA than in the UK. :(

  103. More complicated, but can you do a real world enduro type usage test ?

    IE : Pick a 20-25km loop 1000m total climb . Ride it on an EP8 bike and as similar spec as possible E8000 bike (On subsequent days). IN BOOST !

    Check your times and how much WH you used. This might give some idea of real world performance improvements with regard to the motor putting out power for longer and also give an indication to it being more efficient or not ?

    This, except don’t ride in boost. Ride purely in Trail. Boost is fine and all but for most not a widely used mode and I think will be even less used with the extra torque of the EP8.

  104. This, except don’t ride in boost. Ride purely in Trail. Boost is fine and all but for most not a widely used mode and I think will be even less used with the extra torque of the EP8.

    There’s no such thing as a "pure" ride in TRAIL mode when it comes to assist numbers because it constantly adjusts dynamically based on rider input… so it becomes another variable. Using ECO or BOOST at least keeps the assist level at a preset number throughout the test.

  105. It’s interesting that both the latest motors released from Bosch and Shimano have this rattle when descending. This adds credence to Shimano’s statement that it is a compromise they’ve decided to make to enhance performance in other areas, but judging by the response online it is going to be a deal breaker for some, perhaps many potential buyers. Rather than us hypothesising I would like to know definitively from Shimano what it is that is causing the rattle and what negatives fixing it would have – reduced drag might be the goal, but if so would many buyers not prefer a bit more drag to this noise?

    No matter how Shimano initially responded to the noise issue… compromise is a compromise. It only takes one really bad "feature" to derail a product, no matter how many good "features" the new product has. Judging from the real-world reactions so far I’ve seen from us paying customers, the fact that the new motor has this noise is already a problem.

    "I really like a noisy bike!" … said no one ever LOL

  106. No matter how Shimano initially responded to the noise issue… compromise is a compromise. It only takes one really bad "feature" to derail a product, no matter how many good "features" the new product has. Judging from the real-world reactions so far I’ve seen from us paying customers, the fact that the new motor has this noise is already a problem.

    "I really like a noisy bike!" … said no one ever LOL

    The rumor mill is buzzing that Shimano may be holding up shipments to OEMs for some unnamed issue…maybe this is it.

  107. Copied this from Ebike smile facebook group.

    EP8 news
    Gutted, just been told Shimano are having problems and will not release motor until fixed.
    Email from shop
    I spent yesterday getting an answer from Commencal in regards to the stock, which we’d be informed was 31st August.
    We have now been told that, currently, Shimano are having some issues and are not permitting the motors to be sold until issue is resolved. For that reason Commencal do not have any date for the moment since, they say, it depends on Shimano and not on Commencal.
    So, I’m afraid our options here are limited.
    I’d suggest I refund you and wait until we have some more solid answers from Commencal on when our stock will be arriving.
    22
    9 Comments
    Like

    Comment

    Can confirm this is accurate. My friend talked with Commencal this morning and they expressed concern that Shimano could do a total recall of the EP8 motors.

  108. Yup, everyone I have spoken with on the shop/retail side has said its looking unlikely we will see any EP8 bikes this side of Christmas based on what they are being told
  109. This, except don’t ride in boost. Ride purely in Trail. Boost is fine and all but for most not a widely used mode and I think will be even less used with the extra torque of the EP8.

    But the idea of riding in boost is you can see if the motor power drops off or not, they claim it doesn’t. It also gives you a fixed setting your riding against so you can see if it’s any more efficient. Is it 10% faster round the circuit and uses the same WH ? If you ride in trail, it’s just a plod around and proves that the bike can ride around a circuit .. As @raine says, trail is dynamic, so will be changing constantly depending on how you are riding.

  110. The rumor mill is buzzing that Shimano may be holding up shipments to OEMs for some unnamed issue…maybe this is it.

    What a PR fail if this is true. (n)
    I mean – did Shimano actually think that because "the Bosch does it too" that it would make the clunking noise acceptable? LOL :poop:

    I kind of feel bad for all those people who stalled their eMTB purchase for months specifically for one single purpose of waiting for this new motor… then again if one chose a bike based on the whole package (not just the motor/battery it comes with) one would be riding an eMTB right now and enjoying it. Heh :cool:

  111. Rob,

    Id appreciate a comparison of the new vs old wiring. Ive seen another review which suggests the cables are narrower, not sure if they meant the port or actual wire.

    I find this quite interesting given it used Di2 ports previously and we are still waiting on 12 speed Di2…. 1+1 = new Di2 will use a different wiring found with EP8?

    The proof i guess will be does the EP8 have a port for Di2 derailleur, and can you even answer that question ;) (given its not been mentioned in any reports ive seen i find that quite interesting).

    This might help.

    View attachment 39531

    View attachment 39529

    View attachment 39530

  112. Well ill give them credit for realizing theres a problem and fixing it before they release them

    Not true. Bike manufactures already had it. They didn’t start back tracking until the customer started freaking out about the loud rattle. Commencal was locked and loaded to start shipping out bikes in a few weeks, now who knows how long it will take.

  113. I’ve just had a new E8000 fitted to my focus jam2 under warranty. Not concerned about next time as I see focus have just released a new jam2 with EP8 motor. Its the exact same bike as mine including the same main battery and tec pac. Only difference is motor, wiring and display/controller. My first motor lasted me 5300kms and 18 months. I’m confident I’ll be able to source an EP8 18 months from now, including wiring etc. At the end of the day, its just "parts" that I know will fit. "Glass half full". Let’s ride!!

    Yeah I’m the same , what happened to your motor?

  114. As for the test on range, do one in Boost and one in Trail. Again people don’t ride an entire ride in boost unless they are short on time, going to do a short ride only or have some much battery capacity it doesn’t matter. As for the latter that’s not the case with any 504wh Shimano system so what I’d like to see is if in a real world ride the increased battery capacity and reduced drag of the EP8 and 630wh battery lead to significantly greater range and vertical climbed.
  115. I’ve got the bosch motor and the rattle is such a non issue, I cant believe the fuss being made about it. yes you can hear it, but its not intrusive at all, especially with all the other noises that are going on when you’re flying down a rocky descent.

    The Shimano rattle is more pronounced on the flat and is more of an annoyance. I could live with the Bosch rattle, not so much the Shimano.

    However, some may not feel it too bad.

  116. The Shimano rattle is more pronounced on the flat and is more of an annoyance. I could live with the Bosch rattle, not so much the Shimano.

    However, some may not feel it too bad.

    Yeah fair enough, if the ep8 rattle is loads worse/louder/constant than the bosch then I can see it being a problem.

  117. Not true. Bike manufactures already had it. They didn’t start back tracking until the customer started freaking out about the loud rattle. Commencal was locked and loaded to start shipping out bikes in a few weeks, now who knows how long it will take.

    Its really too bad. I wish it wasnt true. I like a lot about shimano parts over the years and commencals new bikes are pretty amazing and at the forefront for geo. Hope they get it together

  118. As an owner of a Rocky Mountain and his coffe grinder slider … at first it was really annoying … now after many time, is like you don’t heard it no more. Brain can do some miracles.
  119. I’m very surprised if Shimano, during testing didn’t pick up on the clunking. It’s a bit obvious from the GoPro footage.

    Wonder if it’s another issue ?

  120. Have you ever ridden alongside the Bosch, its a constant chain slap type of sound as soon as you back off and annoys me even though I’m not riding the bike, its his second engine and much worse than the first before it failed, he’s reluctant to back it as its the second engine but if were mine it would have gone back long ago.

    Now if the Shimano is even louder then that says a lot, not for me I’m afraid.

  121. So an update:

    Ridden another brand today with the EP8 (brief ride). Has the exact same clattering noise BUT not quite as pronounced as the Merida.

    I also did the drop test of the back tyre on the floor on another 3 brands bikes and the noise is replicated on all of them.

    BUT interestingly, out of the 13 test riders here I’ve not heard anyone mention the noise on their own test bikes after they’ve finished their first ride.

    Im also not going to mention it at all to anyone over the next couple of days (I don’t want to lead anyone to hear it) . I’ll let you know if anyone else notices it.

  122. Just wanted to add to the above – it’s not some lame flex that I have some superior testing procedure to anyone else. I am maybe just more susceptible to noises than some other folks.

    I remember the first ride on the Bosch Gen4 last year. I heard it in immediately on a downhill trail section. My fellow bike Mag tester friend heard nothing. We all have different tolerances to these noises.

  123. So an update:

    Ridden another brand today with the EP8 (brief ride). Has the exact same clattering noise BUT not quite as pronounced as the Merida.

    I also did the drop test of the back tyre on the floor on another 3 brands bikes and the noise is replicated on all of them.

    BUT interestingly, out of the 13 test riders here I’ve not heard anyone mention the noise on their own test bikes after they’ve finished their first ride.

    Im also not going to mention it at all to anyone over the next couple of days (I don’t want to lead anyone to hear it) . I’ll let you know if anyone else notices it.

    If that is the case it seems unlikely the rattle alone is the cause of the recall; it also explains why Shimano got to this stage without it being flagged as a "no-go". The videos certainly make it sound worse than the Bosch, but I know the mic pickup can be unrepresentative. The plot thickens…

  124. Personally on the Bosch bikes I have ridden the rattle doesn’t bother me, in fact unless I deliberately listed for it, then it just blends in with the rest of the noises going on.

    However if you spent a lot of time on an original Levo then any of the new motors is going to sound loud.

  125. Personally on the Bosch bikes I have ridden the rattle doesn’t bother me, in fact unless I deliberately listed for it, then it just blends in with the rest of the noises going on.

    However if you spent a lot of time on an original Levo then any of the new motors is going to sound loud.

    Yep the noise from the bosch on my orbea is a total non issue,

    I don’t think we should listen to noises on a video and decide its a problem, the mic picks some noises up easier than others, and ends up making certain frequencies louder than others. You need to ride the bike and decide for yourself whether it’s an issue to your ears.

  126. No matter how Shimano initially responded to the noise issue… compromise is a compromise. It only takes one really bad "feature" to derail a product, no matter how many good "features" the new product has. Judging from the real-world reactions so far I’ve seen from us paying customers, the fact that the new motor has this noise is already a problem.

    "I really like a noisy bike!" … said no one ever LOL

    and if they’d left the drag in the ones which are now happy because less drag would be howling….

    I really like this bike with crazy ass drag…said no one ever LOL

    you can’t please everybody.

  127. My hearing is OK, functional, but nowhere near as good as it used to be. When my grandson is in front of me he can hear bikes behind me when I hear nothing. So I may be OK with the Bosch and maybe OK with the EP8, I am certainly OK with the e8000!

    But I do know that my hearing difficulty is frequency based, ie. mostly my hearing is OK, but certain frequencies are significantly down. For example, my wife is convinced I don’t listen to her, but in fact it that I just don’t hear her!

  128. My hearing is OK, functional, but nowhere near as good as it used to be. When my grandson is in front of me he can hear bikes behind me when I hear nothing. So I may be OK with the Bosch and maybe OK with the EP8, I am certainly OK with the e8000!

    But I do know that my hearing difficulty is frequency based, ie. mostly my hearing is OK, but certain frequencies are significantly down. For example, my wife is convinced I don’t listen to her, but in fact it that I just don’t hear her!

    Age does have it’s upsides :)

    Mine ain’t what it used to be either. Worst though is trying to follow conversations in very noisy environments with lots of other people talking though…. Hearing motor noises less is quite the boon though…

    Always make an extra ruckus if hikers I am about to overtake look like they are "not quite 20 anymore"… Not only are chances they ain’t hearing me higher. They seem to get bigger frights too when surprised…

  129. and if they’d left the drag in the ones which are now happy because less drag would be howling….

    I really like this bike with crazy ass drag…said no one ever LOL

    you can’t please everybody.

    Well, it’s no secret that E-8000 has drag. If the new EP8 had the same or less drag, IMO that would be fine. But the E-8000 does not randomly clunk like it’s broken, yet from what we’ve seen so far the new EP8 apparently does. IMO That’s not fine – otherwise, none of us would be discussing it right now. This is supposed to be a "new and improved" motor, and by the numbers it is – but with the added caveat of some new noise that the user has no control over (unlike say, being able to reduce chain slap with a chainstay protector or eliminating cable housing tapping with some zip ties).

    Sure this clunk might not bother some people, that’s perfectly fine. But it doesn’t erase the fact that it’s there, and comparing it to Bosch is irrelevant. Either way, hopefully Shimano gets it sorted out.

  130. Well, it’s no secret that E-8000 has drag. If the new EP8 had the same or less drag, IMO that would be fine. But the E-8000 does not randomly clunk like it’s broken, yet from what we’ve seen so far the new EP8 apparently does. IMO That’s not fine – otherwise, none of us would be discussing it right now. This is supposed to be a "new and improved" motor, and by the numbers it is – but with the added caveat of some new noise that the user has no control over (unlike say, being able to reduce chain slap with a chainstay protector or eliminating cable housing tapping with some zip ties).

    Sure this clunk might not bother some people, that’s perfectly fine. But it doesn’t erase the fact that it’s there, and comparing it to Bosch is irrelevant. Either way, hopefully Shimano gets it sorted out.

    You do know the EP8 has much reduced drag and that’s most likely the reason for the clunking? And is the "compromise" Shimano has been saying they had to make.

    So it still is a new and improved motor. Especially for folks who care more about drag and efficiency.

  131. You do know the EP8 has much reduced drag and that’s most likely the reason for the clunking? And is the "compromise" Shimano has been saying they had to make.

    So it still is a new and improved motor. Especially for folks who care more about drag and efficiency.

    Yes I do – re-read my comment.

  132. take the chain off an E8000 and spin the cranks forwards with the motor switched off. you’ll find motor the drag is actually already minimal.
  133. Welp just got in from a ride on my e8000 equipped BMC and man o man what a brilliant motor after all these hard miles. Trail mode is just brilliant, intuitive, seamless.❤
  134. Ur forgetting specialized. They give complimentary blow jobs whilst doing routine motor changes. So yeah they care a lot

    There you go then – you know what to do: buy a Specialized, break it, and then you might finally get somebody to pay some attention to your little Special Place…

    :sneaky:

  135. Just spoke with some of the Shimano team specialists and an OEM partner manager and product manager for EP8.

    They are well aware of the rattle noise and are hoping to be able to take some steps to reduce it (although they probably will not totally eliminate the noise) with some alterations to manufacturing tolerances.

    They hope to be able to do this in conjunction with the production line changes to make sure it passes the ISO test.

    If not in the first run, they hope to be able to make future running changes to the motor to be able to reduce the noise.

    So BEST case they are able to reduce it somewhat before EP8 goes into full production.

  136. From what I can see, Shimano aren’t covering themselves with glory here. How it’s possible to launch a product which doesnt meet specification, especialy as the lauch has been delayed, is beyond me. I know it is easy to end up with a product which doesnt function in the real world as expected, but this has clearly not been tested correctly during development, or there is a coverup going on…

    A great shame, as I imagine it will do a lot of damage to their market share.

  137. From what I can see, Shimano aren’t covering themselves with glory here. How it’s possible to launch a product which doesnt meet specification, especialy as the lauch has been delayed, is beyond me. I know it is easy to end up with a product which doesnt function in the real world as expected, but this has clearly not been tested correctly during development, or there is a coverup going on…

    A great shame, as I imagine it will do a lot of damage to their market share.

    Not the first time its happened in recent history with bike manufacturers.

    Shimano silent XTR hubs? never made it to production, despite prototypes being shown to journalists.
    SRAM disc brake recall, HUGE HUGE loss for SRAM on their first road bike disc brake (Way bigger market than the EP8)

    I’m sure there are others but not any off the top of my head.

  138. They wouldn’t want to canibalise new bike sales

    For large manufacturers, yes, but for smaller manufacturers with a less frequent frame refresh/update cycle, it is a viable option. It isn’t feasible to take the depreciation hit on a 2 year old eMTB just to get a small feature. I guess for some people it’s fine to do that, but not most.

  139. For large manufacturers, yes, but for smaller manufacturers with a less frequent frame refresh/update cycle, it is a viable option. It isn’t feasible to take the depreciation hit on a 2 year old eMTB just to get a small feature. I guess for some people it’s fine to do that, but not most.

    Im sure manufacturers or 3rd party could make a frame fit different motors or batteries, but manufacturers actually being able to buy motors to fit to frames requires contracts, and i think most suppliers will have stipulations or at least not give a good price to the buyer if they wont commit to certain terms. And given many are not actively selling motors to the public, it might be a dead end.

  140. Not the first time its happened in recent history with bike manufacturers.

    Shimano silent XTR hubs? never made it to production, despite prototypes being shown to journalists.
    SRAM disc brake recall, HUGE HUGE loss for SRAM on their first road bike disc brake (Way bigger market than the EP8)

    I’m sure there are others but not any off the top of my head.

    Lol, My friend ran one of those Silent Shimano hubs for a while. He was randomly given it with the disclaimer, “You can run this, but it can and will fail at any given time”.

    SRAM sticky piston brake levers in their Guides was a major issue.

  141. @Rob Rides EMTB

    I’m fortunate enough to own a rally car. Whines, clunks, rattles are part of the process. If I was to pick one the Diff is particularly irking clunk at low speeds (feels like a loose drive shaft), but its just how it is made for speed not refinement. Along with all the metal bushes, clutch chatter, sound deadening in the form of ear plugs, squeeling brakes, etc. It took a long time to have trust there was nothing wrong and this is from someone whose friend experienced a knocking sound on a track day that turned out to be wobbling wheels hitting calipers from a botched wheel refurb >.<

    Its why regulars cars come with rubber bushings, sound mats, etc at the expense of feel and weight.

    I can see you point though; a loose ratterling sound can feel unsettling when you are putting your faith in a bike. I’m in the same boat when it comes to rattles if its constant I think I could tune it out if its random each time then if would prick my anxiety something has come loose. Maybe you are more aware of noises as the bikes you ride change often and you not the sole user so its hard to have a normal base line for rattles. Then again if it saves 30% of drag maybe its worth it.

    So agrued myself to stale mate and comes down to ‘can you live with it?’

    Agree to a degree. However, bikes should run silent in terms of rattles. People spend hours on bikes trying to eliminate them.

    On this one it’s not so much the rattle going downhill, I could maybe put up with that. The Bosch is liveable to me and does just that. This is just plain loud on flat fire roads as well as downhill.

    It’s more nothing can be done about it in the short term, and it feels a little like 2 steps forward 1.5 back..

    Just watched the Colin McRae documentary which was really sad, but man he was being reckless with his Helicopter..

  142. However, bikes should run silent in terms of rattles. People spend hours on bikes trying to eliminate them.

    Yeah. But motors shouldn’t run silent.
    You ride a bike with a motor.
    I sorta see your point but I’d go back to riding normal bikes if you want silence. They’re not only quieter. They’re a lot more fun to ride. 😏

  143. Yeah. But motors shouldn’t run silent.
    You ride a bike with a motor.
    I sorta see your point but I’d go back to riding normal bikes if you want silence. They’re not only quieter. They’re a lot more fun to ride. 😏

    I completely agree :)

    This just isn’t, to me, an acceptable level of rattle. Some may be absolutely fine with it.

    It’s also one of the most natural feeling, like the E8000. It’s the quietest when peddling, noisiest when coasting. Kinda like they’ve robbed Peter to pay Paul..

  144. I have a feeling emtbs won’t get much quieter without some kind of radiator liquid coolant. They could use a belt like brose but thats debatable whether we can call that proven. With non belt emtb motors like the ep8 they could add sound insulation but thats also heat insulation and i suspect that would be a contributor to premature bb bearing failure as well as torque sensor failure. Lighter battery tech might be tge next revolution so the weight they lose czn be partially taken up by a mini radiator /coolant system with an insulated motor casing with heat exhaust out the top of the casing into the frame
  145. I have a feeling emtbs won’t get much quieter without some kind of radiator liquid coolant. They could use a belt like brose but thats debatable whether we can call that proven. With non belt emtb motors like the ep8 they could add sound insulation but thats also heat insulation and i suspect that would be a contributor to premature bb bearing failure as well as torque sensor failure. Lighter battery tech might be tge next revolution so the weight they lose czn be partially taken up by a mini radiator /coolant system with an insulated motor casing with heat exhaust out the top of the casing into the frame

    Belts have been proven, virtually every agricultural machine runs with belts and are reliable in pretty extreme conditions over 1000’s of hours and they are the best for sound dampening. Heat, forget sound deadening materials, you’ll lock the heat in and motors do not like heat, radiaters and coolants, that’s weight which we’re trying to get rid of, metal to metal gears without an extreme oil lubricant means shortened life, metal to specialised plastic gears are quiet but limited by the limited size of the engine to tiny gears which can’t handle the loads, oh the conundrums but where are the oil filled gearboxes every car on the planet has been using for 100 years or more ?

  146. Yeah I was trying to find your pic to quote – you try them?

    Gotta say the Canyon approach whilst not as integrated looks better IMO, personally not such as fan of the lack of adjustment on integrated setups but the Canyon one in particular does look very trick.

  147. If anyone was wondering about peak power on the EP8, I asked, and was told that it has a mechanical peak power of 500watts.

    In comparison to other peak power output from other motors:
    560 watts on Brose Mag S on Levo
    650 watts on Bosch Gen 4 (allegedly)

  148. If anyone was wondering about peak power on the EP8, I asked, and was told that it has a mechanical peak power of 500watts.

    In comparison to other peak power output from other motors:
    560 watts on Brose Mag S on Levo
    650 watts on Bosch Gen 4 (allegedly)

    isn’t it weird to come out with a new product that doesn’t exceed the specs of the existing competition? this is arms race 101.

  149. If anyone was wondering about peak power on the EP8, I asked, and was told that it has a mechanical peak power of 500watts.

    In comparison to other peak power output from other motors:
    560 watts on Brose Mag S on Levo
    650 watts on Bosch Gen 4 (allegedly)

    the truth is…

    Bosch CX4 550W not 650W
    Brose Mag S just above 500W but less than CX4

  150. the truth is…

    Bosch CX4 550W not 650W
    Brose Mag S just above 500W but less than CX4

    What’s the source? Specialized quote the Brose Mag S as 560w.

    A Bosch employee told me the CX4 was 650. Happy to stand corrected with some further info 👍

  151. Someone needs to bodge together a Ebike dyno/test rig as its so hard to actually tell the real world power of the motors
  152. isn’t it weird to come out with a new product that doesn’t exceed the specs of the existing competition? this is arms race 101.

    Or is it genius to come out with a product which competes on weight and form factor with the Mahle and on power with the Bosch and brose?

  153. peak power (or any power) is not ‘the specs’… thankfully. Maybe its just me but a power arms race is the last thing I am interested in or want to see driving development.
  154. Just spoke with some of the Shimano team specialists and an OEM partner manager and product manager for EP8.

    They are well aware of the rattle noise and are hoping to be able to take some steps to reduce it (although they probably will not totally eliminate the noise) with some alterations to manufacturing tolerances.

    They hope to be able to do this in conjunction with the production line changes to make sure it passes the ISO test.

    If not in the first run, they hope to be able to make future running changes to the motor to be able to reduce the noise.

    So BEST case they are able to reduce it somewhat before EP8 goes into full production.

    What will that mean for bies that have already been built and are on the way? Will they be subject to a recall to help reduce these noises?

  155. The article says, “This means it can deliver high power for a longer period before power is reduced to 250W.”

    So… when the motor warms up it has the same power as a Levo SL?

  156. Let’s have a look at the performance charts. Both motors nominally require 250 watts of continuous power – that is the legal regulation. Does that also mean that the motors are all the same? No. You have to know: a pedelec motor is not regulated in terms of its peak performance. So north the 2020 Bosch CX with approx. 550 watts peak power on paper more power than the Brose DriveS with its just over 500 watts. In practice, these numbers can also be "eaten" by the tires. The wrong air pressure in the tire alone can make a difference of up to 40 watts. A small victory in the quartet for eMTBers is achieved with the Brose in terms of torque: there it is 90Nm to 85Nm for the Bosch CX Generation 4. But: what are these numbers in practice?

    source but in German 🤗

    This article is incorrect. Brose Mag S on Levo puts out 565 watts peak mechanical watts (actually is upto around 750 watts electrical power).

    Shimano is 500 watts peak confirmed by Shimano engineers to me in person.

  157. Yup don’t confuse electrical input power to mechanical power output on the power train, heat and friction are a huge user of your battery without any gain to your actual on the ground cycling fun.
  158. Hi Rob, yes fortunately only the Android App is cactus, I borrowed a friends iphone and back in business but yeah Android App is a basketcase.

    Such a shame this whole launch has gone so wrong. It does make me question my choice of shimano motor, but I expect all the manufacturers are the same in reality.

    Thats part of adopting a relatively new technology I guess!

  159. Such a shame this whole launch has gone so wrong. It does make me question my choice of shimano motor, but I expect all the manufacturers are the same in reality.

    Thats part of adopting a relatively new technology I guess!

    where is the problem? so far the engine is not in series production and by then shimano will very likely have fixed the rattle.

    Despite the construction problem, Brose delivered the S Mag and to this day the motors continue to poop. I really hope that the Levo 3 will come without Brose.

  160. where is the problem? so far the engine is not in series production and by then shimano will very likely have fixed the rattle.

    Well, I would say that that pulling the product after (the already delayed) launch isn’t ideal and demonstrates a lack of testing / proving of the product, and updating an app which has issues including rendering bikes (albeit reversable) non functional isnt how to cover yourself in glory!

  161. Well, I would say that that pulling the product after (the already delayed) launch isn’t ideal and demonstrates a lack of testing / proving of the product, and updating an app which has issues including rendering bikes (albeit reversable) non functional isnt how to cover yourself in glory!

    Yes, I agree. Shimano has set himself the Release date of September 1st. It would have been better to wait another 2-3 months. However, there is so much pressure in the market and it is actually quite normal for a new product to be further improved after its launch. It is best to buy a product 2-3 years after its introduction. I just hope that the EP8 doesn’t experience such an embarrassing disaster as the Brose S Mag. It remains exciting …

  162. So I tested a few days after Rob, I rode a few bikes, they all rattled a lot, like a large very loose cable in the frame. Was very annoying. Shimano said they would fix it and listened to our feedback…

More Stories
MERIDA EX – Is 2019 the breakthrough year for ebike racing?