20mph speed government petition is live!

Signed!

I ride a Trek Rail in rural Wales mostly on back roads and occasionally on trails, I've often thought whilst out that it would massively benefit from having a bit more time of 'motor being active' rather than the current cut off so I'm well up for a slight increase

@Rob Rides EMTB - just a thought, if you mention this on your YT channel there may be a chance to give it some traction.
Everytime there is a mention of assistance limits there is always a very active response in the comments. Those that are against it for whatever reason don't have to sign or update their firmware but it would seem a large number would be content at 20mph negating the wish to bypas the restriction and render their bikes illegal for use in public areas and roads. None of us want to break the laws but sometimes they are at odds with the majority of peoples common sense.

Sgarth42 said:

sometimes they are at odds with the majority of peoples common sense.

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Majority? Mmmm not sure about that

Weeksy said:

Majority? Mmmm not sure about that

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Well I can say that I for one would prefer 20mph and everyone I have spoken to/ride with feels the same. Guess numbers can be more accurately guaged by how many signatures are achieved. Like I said, no one is forced to sign, or indeed update their system, If they don't want that extra 5mph assistance. But we should be given the choice

The fact it has 162 signatures tells us that either the majority don't know a out this, or don't care. I could make a petition to make Apricots the national fruit of England and get more that 162 signatures

I think most who do care have derestricted anyway so ain’t bovered

How come that some people having such a strong and “invasive” short vision opinion on certain subjects (e-bikes can’t go faster than 20mph everywhere, always, no exceptions, unless you pay for it )?
This applies for both the Pros and the Cons opinion givers, very often a minority, imposing their simplistic, egocentric views on how things should or shouldn’t be done.
The majority do think and see the complexity of the subject, are more reserved , sometimes scared to start debating because doubts and uncertainty.

So for those with strong “black/white” opinions, convince us with strong factual arguments, not just beliefs.

Thanks

manu.w said:

So for those with strong “black/white” opinions, convince us with strong factual arguments, not just beliefs.

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You've hit the nail on the head! It's wild how some folks can see everything in just black and white, especially when it comes to e-bikes and speed limits. It's like, life's way more colorful than that, right?

It's easy to shout "20mph or bust!" from the rooftops or dig your heels in on the opposite side. But, like you said, there's a whole spectrum in between that's worth exploring. We're all cruising through this together, trying to figure out the best path forward without turning it into a bumper car ride.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not overlooking the safety aspect. Bumping up the speed from 15 to 20 mph does raise the stakes a bit, no denying that. But it's not just about gaining speed; it's about how we're doing it. Keeping e-bikes pedal-assisted, capped at 250W, without any sneaky throttles—that's the sweet spot. We're talking about a tiny nudge on the speedometer, not a full-blown race mode.

This 4 mph difference? It's more than a number. It's about hitting that natural stride where the ride just feels right, not like you've suddenly hit an invisible wall. That jarring 'speed wall' is what drives folks to mess with their rides, opting for those wild-west, no-limits setups that can crank things way past safe.

So, here's the kicker: if we ease up that limit to where it feels natural, we might just see fewer riders feeling pushed to go rogue with their setups. Imagine, grabbing a bike straight off the rack, no fuss, no mods, and it just... feels good. That's the goal.

Let's keep this chat as chill as a leisurely e-bike ride through the park, but as informative as a mechanic's manual. Looking forward to seeing where this ride takes us!

I'm pretty sure that @Rob Rides EMTB is carefully tracking this discussion and our posts would impact how he will approach his potential YouTube video. Let's just give him arguments of both sides. Let's help him made informative, nice video which potentially will make difference!

I dont know if Rob wants to get involved but at the end of the day the EMTB lobby is not big enough or immediately relevant to the issue of maximum assisted speed. The petition needs the support of the bigger segments of the Ebike market possibly through the bigger retailers or even the manufacturers. Both have an interest in selling more bikes and that also hits one of Governments aims in promoting cycling both to reduce car journeys but also for the public health benefits.

As far as EMTB is concerned I and many others go significantly faster than the cut off assisted speed on downhill trials and perhaps the only time I notice the cut off is approaching a jump ramp on the flat..........that is rare for my type of riding........and I dont ride on the public roads or flat single track. Compare that to someone using an Ebike to commute to work etc and they have to contend with lots of other traffic. On the open road their inability to do any more than the cutoff speed on inclines or even of facing strong wind leads to frustration and delays for following traffic and the potential for "close" overtakes. Even in a more urban environment the existing cut off speed can be a problem.

Mikerb said:

I dont know if Rob wants to get involved but at the end of the day the EMTB lobby is not big enough or immediately relevant to the issue of maximum assisted speed. The petition needs the support of the bigger segments of the Ebike market possibly through the bigger retailers or even the manufacturers. Both have an interest in selling more bikes and that also hits one of Governments aims in promoting cycling both to reduce car journeys but also for the public health benefits.

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Man, you're speaking my language! I totally get where you're coming from, especially about the whole eMTB scene and how it fits (or doesn't fit) into this speed limit convo. And yep, I've got a game plan that's pretty much in line with what you're suggesting.

First off, I'm aiming to rally the troops, getting anywhere from 200-500 signatures to show there's real interest here. Then, with a bit of that community spirit in the air, I'm hoping to catch the eye of some big names in the game—think Rob, EMBN, and other heavy hitters. If they see it's not just me, some random girl on a mission, but a whole bunch of us, maybe they'll help spread the word even further.

Now, imagine this: we hit that sweet spot of 2-3k signatures. That's when we've got enough clout to grab the attention of the big players—retail giants and top-tier manufacturers. But the real kicker? Once we get the movement rolling with enough momentum caused by big brands which have bigger lobby impact, that's when the media starts to tune in. Blogs, news outlets, you name it. That's how we get the word out big time.

Mikerb said:

As far as EMTB is concerned I and many others go significantly faster than the cut off assisted speed on downhill trials and perhaps the only time I notice the cut off is approaching a jump ramp on the flat..........that is rare for my type of riding........and I dont ride on the public roads or flat single track

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As for the daily grind on the trails and those trips to my favorite spots—man, it's like a dance, isn't it? Dodging and weaving between different types of riders on those narrow paths along the river channel. The constant game of leapfrog with road bikes and gravel grinders on the flats, then playing catch-up on the uphills, only to do it all over again on the downs. It's a rhythm that's all out of whack. A slight bump up to 20 mph could smooth out those transitions, making the whole ride feel more natural, not just for me but for everyone involved.

I've been there with the whole chipping thing too, pushing past the limits just because it felt too darn restrictive (My old Cube Stereo with Gen3 Bosch motor have much, much, muuuuch worse motor drag in comparison to Gen4 motor). But here's the thing: Because we can - we have been hitting 30+ mph might give us a rush, but it's that 20 mph sweet spot that keeps things feeling just right—fast enough to be in the natural flow but not so fast that it throws off the harmony of the trail or the path and gets to crazy in cities or narrow cycle paths.

So yeah, let's take it step by step, build up the momentum, and make this change happen. It's all about keeping the vibe right and the ride smooth for all of us, no matter what we're riding.

… why they don’t apply cut off on cars?

manu.w said:

… why they don’t apply cut off on cars?

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Haha, that's a fun way to put it!

You're spot on. Imagine if cars were restricted like that—Ferraris and Puntos could go 60 mph, but Tesla is capped at 45 mph just because they're electric, while their petrol pals zoom by at 60 mph. Talk about a double standard, right? Everyone in their Teslas would be pulling their hair out, especially knowing their ride could easily cruise at 150 mph if only it were allowed.

It's pretty much the same vibe with e-bikes. Why should all e-bikes face the same speed cap when it's clear they can handle more, just like their pedal-powered cousins? It's like saying, "Hey, you've got a bit of electric help there, so let's keep you on a tighter leash," regardless of the bike's capability or the rider's needs.

And yeah, I get the whole specialty equipment argument—big trucks and tractors have their own set of rules for good reasons. But when we talk bikes, it shouldn't be about what's powering your ride but more about what makes sense for the type of bike and where you're riding it. Those hefty three-wheel delivery bikes are a whole different ball game compared to your average eMTB or road e-bike.

So, why not adjust the rules to fit the reality of the road (or trail) and the capabilities of the bikes we're riding? It's all about keeping things fair, safe, and enjoyable for everyone, whether you're in a car, on an e-bike, or pedaling away on a traditional bike.

There’s already been a petition on here that went nowhere ;

Oh, I wasn't aware of the previous petition. Thanks for bringing that up! But hey, think about how much has changed in just four years. The e-bike market has exploded, with more folks hopping on e-bikes than ever before. And with that growth comes a deeper understanding of what works and what doesn't.

Not to mention, back when that petition made its rounds, the UK was still part of the EU, which meant we were tied to EU regulations. Now, with a bit more legislative freedom post-Brexit, why not explore aligning our e-bike laws with countries that have more rider-friendly regulations? Places like the USA, Canada, New Zealand, and Brazil have taken steps to adapt their laws to better fit the evolving landscape of e-biking.

That earlier petition gathering over 5k signatures is nothing to sneeze at—it's a clear sign that there's a real conversation to be had here. It's about time we revisit this topic, armed with our current experiences and the momentum of a growing community. Let's give it another shot, considering how much more we've all got to say now!

20mph said:

This 4 mph difference? It's more than a number. It's about hitting that natural stride where the ride just feels right, not like you've suddenly hit an invisible wall. That jarring 'speed wall' is what drives folks to mess with their rides, opting for those wild-west, no-limits setups that can crank things way past safe.

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Ebikes are not capped. Ebikes are not restricted!!!
All that's restricted is the cut off of assistance. The rest is down to people. Get fitter, stronger, faster if you want to exceed the 15.5 limiter, just pedal, push them legs.

If ebikes couldn't go faster than 15.5 then you'd have a point, but the CAN. The difference is, you have to do it yourself.

Get to your speed wall and pedal hard, you'll soon the through it.

Now I totally understand that some* people don't have the physical attributes to exceed it themself, through age, injury, condition, you know what, that's ok, just don't.

But don't give me all this flannel about keeping up with traffic, if you need to go faster, get a bike that goes faster easier. You've bought the ebike already knowing it's limitations, accept them

Dude the main issue for me is jumps , if the bikes power cuts out in the wrong place it’s disaster time 15mph is too slow 20mph is good for most situations . I derestricted mine only for this reason and will probably only pedal over the limit a couple of times a ride .

Weeksy said:

If ebikes couldn't go faster than 15.5 then you'd have a point, but the CAN. The difference is, you have to do it yourself.

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Quick check-in before we dive deeper into this debate: Are you currently an e-bike rider, or do you stick to traditional bikes? I'm asking because it often feels like there's a bit of a disconnect in these discussions between those who've felt the e-bike vibe and those who might not have had that firsthand experience yet.

If you haven't had the chance to spend a day with an e-bike, I highly recommend giving it a whirl. Riding one can really open your eyes to the dynamics, especially that jarring moment when you cross the 16 mph threshold and the motor support just cuts out. Suddenly, you're not just pedaling; you're fighting against the motor's drag and the extra weight from the battery and motor, not to mention the wider tires that are pretty standard on e-bikes. It's a bit like hitting an invisible wall, and it can turn a smooth ride into a bit of a slog.

I've logged over 1500 miles on my Cube Stereo 140, and hitting that cutoff time and again... let's just say it gets old fast. It doesn't matter how fit you are; that constant start-stop with the motor can drive you to consider chipping, just to keep the ride feeling smooth.

Now, I get that this might not be a big deal if you're only hitting the trails, where the motor's there to give you a boost uphill (and let's be honest, on steep climbs, you're probably not hitting the limit anyway, as dropping gears to get more torque get you riding 8-12mph - still significantly faster than 3-5 mph without assistance) and then you're coasting downhill at speeds where the motor doesn't factor in. But for those of us covering some miles on the flats to get to our favorite spots, or even just using our bikes for a bit of everything, that speed limit feels more like a hindrance than a help.

It's not just about wanting to go faster for the sake of speed; it's about making the ride feel right, without those abrupt interruptions. What's your take?

I own an Orbea Rise H15, also a Liv Embolden E+. Along with that I ride a Specialized Status 160.
Yesterday I was at bike park Wales on the Status, today I was riding local trails on the Orbea.
I recently restricted my Orbea as it had been derestricted by the previous owner. It didn't affect my ride at all.

20mph said:

. What's your take?

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It doesn't bother me. On the trails if I need to exceed the power cut to hit a specific feature, I just pedal harder. The wall, meh, not really, it's not that much of a factor.
Although I'll admit, on the Trek Rail the wall you speak of is more pronounced

As a more mature rider and not able to get out as often as i would like. I am probably not as fit and agile as many on hear. I certainly like my Trek Rail but would love the assistance level cut-off raise to 20mph. I would agree that at BPW I have found that it wouldn't make any difference. In fact any of the bike parks I go to but there are many other places that I ride and that's where I would see the benefit.
If anyone doesn't want that extra assist then no one is forced to use it. In fact the benefit of ebikes is being able to dial it down and gain extra fitness if that's your thing but personally I would like to have that choice especially as I am.getting older and creakier.

"15mph is too slow" brings us back to (I think) Weeksy's point. If it's too slow why? Because you feel like you deserve to go faster because the technology allows? Well we already decided that things that go faster need type approval, mot tax and insurance so that option is already open to you. Why fanny about with 20 when you're already allowed 30?
If its because 20 is safer in traffic then you've just written off every pedal cycle as officially dangerous unless the owner can demonstrate they can keep up the the local road club's chain gang.

Imagine if cars were restricted like that—Ferraris and Puntos could go 60 mph, but Tesla is capped at 45 mph just because they're electric, while their petrol pals zoom by at 60 mph. Talk about a double standard, right?

Absolutely nonsensical false equivalence!

The only way this argument makes sense is for ebikes to be restricted to 15mph while petrol powered ones weren't. But of course they are because you have to MOT them, etc. and sub 15mph bikes are illegal. So the reality is in fact electric bikes have it "easier" than petrol ones.

How are things looking in Cycling Nirvana?

I suggest you find a politician who is willing to carry the torch on this effort - a petition won't have much impact without a champion and boots on the ground working it.

I agree fully that if you want to go faster - get a moped/motorbike/car - properly taxed and insured for road use with approriate head protection/clothing etc. I have both motorbikes and cars. There are a combination of very valid points here I fully agree that in bike parks/single track and probably most trails the 15.5mph assistance limit is mostly fine and it is down to the individual rider. However, when in traffic on the road, the sweet spot is 18-20mph. This is where I would aim to sit on my non ebike but my older & creakier limbs now struggle up the hills or into a head wind and certainly trying to push the ebike over the 15.5mph assistance limit for any extended period is not sustainable for me. At 18-20mph I simply feel safer than at 15.5mph. Less unsafe manouvers from drivers of vehicles as that very slight increase in my speed makes many drivers more cautious of the manover to overtake. Don't know if there is any pshycology behind but it certainly feels so.
I would also agree that a politiian with an agreeable view point to champion these considerations would help allow the users of ebikes to choose whether they prefered to keep their ebike set to EU/UK assist limits or be allowed to choose the 20mph limit safely allowed by US/NZ (and other coutries). I strongly suspect that many would opt for the latter.
One final point (and then I will shut up) I have no idea how many would perfer the 20mph limit and when I siad that I suspected "the majority". I was only going by my thoughts based on those reflected on may other posts here. eg the number of forum post enquiring about deristricting, the feed back on YT channels EMTB & Rob Rides plus many other channels and finally by my own circle of fellow ebike riders.
My parting thought for consideration is that there would not be the many options of de-restricting devices available if there weren't a ready market otherwise there be no viable R&D & business plan to make it financially viable for these companies. I firmly believe if the asistance level limit was 20mph, that many wouldn't even bother looking into de-restricting, preferring to stay totally legal and warrantied by the manufacturer

Why don't Speedbox or whoever make a 20mph derestrict kit and everyone would buy it? Answer is, people want More and more. If you up it to 20, people still want 25 and will still chip it.

I still don't get your 'safer' logic. There's a very very small number of people who can pedal a manual at 20mph average, yet there's still millions riding bicycles on roads every single day.

At the end of the day, I care very little what people do in terms of chipping their bikes, but some of the reasoning amuses me.

Weeksy said:

Why don't Speedbox or whoever make a 20mph derestrict kit and everyone would buy it? Answer is, people want More and more. If you up it to 20, people still want 25 and will still chip it.

I still don't get your 'safer' logic. There's a very very small number of people who can pedal a manual at 20mph average, yet there's still millions riding bicycles on roads every single day.

At the end of the day, I care very little what people do in terms of chipping their bikes, but some of the reasoning amuses me.

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It's not really the "average" though. The conflicts happen at peak speeds. And you're not going to maintain 20mph "average" on an eMTB for very long. About 1 hour max, if you're also pedaling at race pace. At least that's been my experience in eMTB racing.

Hi Paulina,

There you hitted the red button.
There is a difference between for example the US and Europe, and within Europe between the UK and the continent. For Europe (UK included) your intiative is most welcome.

Important only for reasons of this discussion is to separate the city-bike from the sport-mtb.
Safety-issues are focussing in majority on the city-bikes and the safety for elderly. That's fine, but it's another problem. Don't let that problem overshadow the your purpose for the sportsclass.

Because, if you can master a bio-bike, than you probably ticked the 20 m/ 32 k/ph quite often already. Restricting the e-mtb on 20m /32k just brings us back to the level of our bio-friends.
And be honest; for a speed of up to 35m / 50 k per hour you need a cadens of perhaps over 120 rpm. How many of us can do so?
So my point would be that there is a natural limitation for most of us. (For myself it would be about 40k/h for over about 10 k'. I dont do such routes, because there is no fun in that. My avarage speed on single trails on the flat is ~ 20 k/h )
So I would have voted 'YES". But, sorry, I'm not a British citizen or UK resident and therefore I have not the right to sign

The complaints about usage in bike-parks I don't understand. While these parks are closed terrains, we can derestrict our bikes for that moment and have fun.
Btw, for jumps with a speed over 35m/h I can't manage with bio- or E if there is no slope

I'll couriously read your progress and wish you good luck.

Important for this discussion is to separate the city-bike from the sport-mtb.
Safety-issues focussing in majority on the city-bikes and the safety for eldery. That's fine, but it's another problem. Don't let that problem overshadow the sportsclass.

You can't seperate the two! Anywhere you use your ebike is a public space and it has to be fine for anyone 14 or above (no upper limit) to use without any further hassle beyond paying for it.

If however it's private land you can already do what you like, or at least whatever the landowner is happy with.

Weeksy said:

There's a very very small number of people who can pedal a manual at 20mph average

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There is huge difference between average and cruising speeds on flat terrains.
On My derestricted bikes on 20 miles loops - my typical average speed was just 12 mph based on my Strava history stats.

And also that's the freedom of ebikes. You can increase or decrease assisted power, speed, you can disable it completely. You can also not ride e-bike at all. If you are riding only on the trails and you don't need it - why you can't understand that someone else (and there is more than 5 thousands other people like me which sign previous petition from 2020)?

If you like less assistance or lower assistance speed - just change it in options, example:


Where is the problem?

johnnystorm said:

Well we already decided that things that go faster need type approval, mot tax and insurance so that option is already open to you

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I know. I'm holding full motorcycle license, have motorbike and I'm aware about MOT, tax, costs related to that etc...

I'm fully aware of limitations of greenlining and freedom of riding e-bike on footpaths, bideways, single tracks etc.

That's why i'm not owning a Surron / big "bomber" ebike, but standard, 250W pedal assisted eMTB. I love exercise, I love freedom and feeling of bikes pedaling and burning in my muscles.

If I would simply want to go faster - I would simply chip my bike and don't care. That's not problem. That's easy and quick to do.

Weeksy said:

I care very little what people do in terms of chipping their bikes, but some of the reasoning amuses me.

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What amuses me is that if you don't care - why is it such a big deal for you? I'm putting in a lot of time, effort, doing research, building websites, and spending my energy for sitting next to the computer, doing research and discussing on this and other forums because I've got a goal. I want to make a difference. An improvement. I really believe that increase assistance limit (with all motor power, requirements for pedal assistance only, certification, disallow for throttle, etc) would make change for the better. I believe that would decrease the number of people chipping bikes and going much faster, I believe that this would limit the amount of non-brand bikes which burn in busses and metros make life more difficult for us, I believe that with e-bikes being more popular, cheap and wider available - people would go and buy cheaper bike in Decathlon which could ride 20mph instead of going to "Alibaba" and get some Chinese brand which weigh 40kg and start fire over night while charging and potentially make e-bikes banned and more restricted.

I've put all of this arguments in this discussion and on the petition website already and I feel that I'm starting to go in circles without going anywhere.

That's my goal. What's yours? What do you want to achieve by being against a slightly increased assisted speed by 4 mph? Why are you putting your time, effort, and energy into this discussion if you care very little? Seriously. What's your gain?