PinkBike Freak-Out on April 9th?

[AirKuhl]

I’m going to have disagree. I’ve seen plenty of whiners from all over the world who are going on and on and on about how we are all going to lose trail access and more if we don’t make new rules and regulations that limit the speed/power of all of e-bikes to a certain manufacturer’s level. It’s just so much unnecessary drama and it’s tiring. My comments/replies are not geographically based. If a person wants limits on their own bikes, that’s fine. But don’t try to limit what I and others have and try to manipulate the rest of world do do what you think is best for everyone else. That includes manufacturers like Bosch trying to get others to match what they have rather than trying to evolve and keep up with the progress that’s been made. Even paying influencers, like Hans to spout their propaganda. They can all f right off.

Exactly. So many people have a fetish to blame inanimate objects for their own lack of discipline and self-control.
Some douche nozzle on an analogue bike can cause far more "calls for regulations" than a polite emtb'er.
More laws and regulations rarely solve problems; they are far more likely to cause them.

 

[Onetime]

Exactly. So many people have a fetish to blame inanimate objects for their own lack of discipline and self-control.
Some douche nozzle on an analogue bike can cause far more "calls for regulations" than a polite emtb'er.
More laws and regulations rarely solve problems; they are far more likely to cause them.

100%

 

[Suns_PSD]

Exactly. So many people have a fetish to blame inanimate objects for their own lack of discipline and self-control.
Some douche nozzle on an analogue bike can cause far more "calls for regulations" than a polite emtb'er.
More laws and regulations rarely solve problems; they are far more likely to cause them.

Surely you recognize that if every male (especially the young ones) was given, for example a Z06 Corvette, that as a group there would be more reckless driving occurring then if they had only been allowed to operate a minivan?
It's all well and good to say people have to be responsible for themselves, but that fails to recognize that people are human.
If you don't want people operating at motorcycle speeds on bike trails, simple don't allow vehicles that go motorcycle speeds to be sold for those trails.
Furthermore if you consider yourself one of the responsible ones that would never utilize or operate in an unsafe manner then why do you even need all the extra power? That doesn't really make sense.

 

[Brawwp]

Surely you recognize that if every male (especially the young ones) was given, for example a Z06 Corvette, that as a group there would be more reckless driving occurring then if they had only been allowed to operate a minivan?
It's all well and good to say people have to be responsible for themselves, but that fails to recognize that people are human.
If you don't want people operating at motorcycle speeds on bike trails, simple don't allow vehicles that go motorcycle speeds to be sold for those trails.
Furthermore if you consider yourself one of the responsible ones that would never utilize or operate in an unsafe manner then why do you even need all the extra power? That doesn't really make sense.

But z06 corvettes are street legal and allowed on the road just as all the other cars and many more that are even faster…..Tesla can also be thrown in there for being an extremely popular car now that is incredibly fast and owned by a ton of inexperienced drivers.

The Avinox bikes are still legal man. Why are you guys pushing so hard to ban them?

 

[boulderghost]

Don't weep for Tesla, they are worth 5 times as much as the next most valuable car company (Toyota) and 17 times as much as the next largest western company (GM). They are basically worth more than all other car companies combined.
Their profit margin is second only to Ferrari.
The Model Y was the world's best selling car (ICE or EV) for 4 years in a row with the Rav4 barely edging it out last year.
Meanwhile, the "legacy brands" took over $70B in losses over the past year as they can't seem to sell any EV's in open markets.

Bringing this back on topic, it seems obvious that DJI entering the emtb space was disruptive in the sense that other bike and motor brands can't ignore them. Much like when Tesla entered the market years ago, I would bet large sums that the "legacy" brands are having regular meetings planning how to either partner with or respond to the Avinox system.

You tell em! The anti Tesla propaganda has been based on competitive fear more than political animosity. Tesla still dominates the entire automotive industry in the US and Europe. In very short time Tesla Robotaxis will crush all ride share and worldwide taxi services. It’s inevitable that when superior technology shows up: “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win“. With both Tesla and Avinox we are at the “fight you” stage. What’s encouraging is that Avinox completely bypassed the laugh and ignore phase. Ever since their introduction, legacy bike scrambled to diminish their claims of performance/reliability, spread doubt that they could scale and installed fear that more power would bring down the wrath of legal regulation. My favorite desperate objection promoted by the lagging competitors was that 1000+ watts is too much power!! Please…everyone who rides an Avinox motor knows that the “power” is infinitely manageable with their superior software. Obviously, this power is controlled and can be reduced to give superior range as an alternative. You can’t get more power from the Bosch motor by adjusting the screen settings, but you can get far more range by adjusting the settings in the Avinox. The winner is clear by a large margin and the sales number last year prove this. Next year will be a bloodbath for Bosch, bros, ect. Shimano is already dust in the wind.

 

[F4Flyer]

The problem is that Avinox far exceeds the power max in the Class 1 category. Since I still ride regular MTBs, even 85 NM is way too much power for me, so Avinox holds no attraction unless the frame is stiff, the stack is high enough, the BB is high enough, and it is light enough. Then I can tune it down to my 30-40 nm and get AMAZING range- like 8,000 ft+ vertical gain on a single charge. Still, the problem is that it will very likely trigger Class 1 enforcement on many trails, and we will start to see the anti ebike crowd gaining support again. We have JUST gotten to the point where different mountain communities here are considering Class 1 access. If that happens, a lot of us eMTB guys will have no choice but to help enforce the Class 1 rules or we get completely banned. If the rules change (unlikely but possible) in the US, then all is good.

 

[Brawwp]

The problem is that Avinox far exceeds the power max in the Class 1 category. Since I still ride regular MTBs, even 85 NM is way too much power for me, so Avinox holds no attraction unless the frame is stiff, the stack is high enough, the BB is high enough, and it is light enough. Then I can tune it down to my 30-40 nm and get AMAZING range- like 8,000 ft+ vertical gain on a single charge. Still, the problem is that it will very likely trigger Class 1 enforcement on many trails, and we will start to see the anti ebike crowd gaining support again. We have JUST gotten to the point where different mountain communities here are considering Class 1 access. If that happens, a lot of us eMTB guys will have no choice but to help enforce the Class 1 rules or we get completely banned. If the rules change (unlikely but possible) in the US, then all is good.

No it doesn’t dude. Class 1 mode on Avinox is legally class 1. Case closed.

Are we just talking avinox or amflow too now? These seem to keep getting interchanged because there are a ton of avinox bike frames now. And just because a bike doesn’t meet your own particular fancy why can’t you guys seem to understand that others may enjoy/prefer it?

 

[F4Flyer]

I don't care who buys it. I care about trail access. The new Avinox motors far exceed the 750 watts generally associated with Class 1 eMTBs/ebikes till now. As this gets surpassed, people will start to complain and then there will be a limit, and especially if they start to derestrict the motors and fly around the trails. That will definitely happen here. There are still communities with awesome trails that do not even permit Class 1 ebikes.

 

[F4Flyer]

Most just buy and ride. Many of us have quietly and carefully worked for years and years to get trail access to Class 1 ebikes. I am not saying that this is under threat but if it does come under threat due to much more powerful motors, we will work to do whatever it takes to maintain access, and if that means throwing high-power motors under the bus, that is what will need to be done.

 

[Brawwp]

Most just buy and ride. Many of us have quietly and carefully worked for years and years to get trail access to Class 1 ebikes. I am not saying that this is under threat but if it does come under threat due to much more powerful motors, we will work to do whatever it takes to maintain access, and if that means throwing high-power motors under the bus, that is what will need to be done.

Yeah for sure. Places that have the regulations already have the regulations in place. So if for whatever crazy reason your local law enforcement comes to check the wattage on e-bikes at your trail, those who are derestricted will be held accountable. That’s not going to change you if you’re riding legally. I also truly believe these regulations are put in place for the most part to keep motorcycles, surrons, throttle e-bikes off our trails. E-assist bikes are not causing trail damage and issues like these other throttle style bikes.

I’ve yet to hear of anyone having their assisted bicycle checked on the trails. These bikes are not that fast even in max modes and it’s already to the point that the high majority of us never use that max output. I just don’t ever see this being an issue unless it’s other emtbers who go raise hell about it. I’m willing to bet a lot of your local emtb guys already ride derestricted anyway on whatever bike they are on.

Edit to add in: your last sentence. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, emtb guys are going to be the ones to get a ban started. Nobody else is going to care.

 

[F4Flyer]

I ride a lot. I personally have not seen an eMTB guy tearing stuff up or being reckless. Others have but it is rare. Still, the anti crowd is still out there. They are pissed off at the wins we have gotten for eMTBs. They complain but we haven’t places being won over. As long as that is not threatened , all is well. As soon as the hell raisers start to go bananas and start crashing into people or when some
Park or county authority gets sued due to a crash by a derestricted bike or something, it will have a domino effect as they will blame e-bikes. Ride whatever but let’s be aware of the years-long fight we fought to get trail access. I can use both an eMTB, a Trek Top Fuel, and and an Ibis Ripmo. I have hardly any eMTB buddies so I still get to see the other side. A lot of people still want to restrict e-bikes from trails.

 

[venturavin]

No it doesn’t dude. Class 1 mode on Avinox is legally class 1. Case closed.

Are we just talking avinox or amflow too now? These seem to keep getting interchanged because there are a ton of avinox bike frames now. And just because a bike doesn’t meet your own particular fancy why can’t you guys seem to understand that others may enjoy/prefer it?

Case closed, except in the opposite way that you seem to think. If the bike exceeds those power limits then it does not qualify as class 1. Pretty simple. The regulation pertains to the bikes maximum power, not to a setting available in the bike.

That's like saying you can own a fully automatic rifle in your Hawaii because it also has a semi-auto mode.

But no facts are relevant if someone is set on manipulating everything to suit themselves.

Edit: To be clear I am very PRO ebikes, but I am becoming frustrated with the attitudes of the DJI bros who have no understanding of or respect for mountain biking.

 

[Brawwp]

Case closed, except in the opposite way that you seem to think. If the bike exceeds those power limits then it does not qualify as class 1. Pretty simple. The regulation pertains to the bikes maximum power, not to a setting available in the bike.

That's like saying you can own a fully automatic rifle in your Hawaii because it also has a semi-auto mode.

But no facts are relevant if someone is set on manipulating everything to suit themselves.

Edit: To be clear I am very PRO ebikes, but I am becoming frustrated with the attitudes of the DJI bros who have no understanding of or respect for mountain biking.

it’s a bicycle not a gun bro. Little different but I get your analogy lol.

Yeah I guess I’m to the point that I don’t care to argue it anymore. The avinox is here and you guys have to deal with it. With how many manufacturers are adopting it now I’m sure banning them will be difficult with the amount of money involved. I didn’t manufacture the motor so you can’t be upset with me for purchasing a bike with class 1 mode. If you guys get so angry you get them banned in your area then whatever lol. I’m done arguing for the guys that want this motor in your areas.

I do see both sides of this argument. I totally understand where you’re coming from. I just think you guys are kind of fear mongering imo. I don’t think the new M2s is going to get all e-bikes banned on your local trails, but by all means you guys can go get them banned if that’s what you seem to want.

 

[AirKuhl]

Surely you recognize that if every male (especially the young ones) was given, for example a Z06 Corvette, that as a group there would be more reckless driving occurring then if they had only been allowed to operate a minivan?
It's all well and good to say people have to be responsible for themselves, but that fails to recognize that people are human.
If you don't want people operating at motorcycle speeds on bike trails, simple don't allow vehicles that go motorcycle speeds to be sold for those trails.
Furthermore if you consider yourself one of the responsible ones that would never utilize or operate in an unsafe manner then why do you even need all the extra power? That doesn't really make sense.

1) Calling out males is sexist. I know plenty of women that shred too.
2) Every single street legal car in the world can exceed the speed limit. Should cars also be artificially limited to posted speeds?
3) Every single non-motorized MTB can exceed reasonable speeds downhill. The existence of a motor is irrelevant.
4) Many of us shuttle to trailheads on roads and/or ride on private land and/or mixed-use trails that allow motorized vehicles. I do all 3 almost every time I ride.

I could give plenty more examples, but I hope you get the point. Personal responsibility needs to be embraced not dismissed. The only solution to hooligan behavior is to hold people accountable for their actions. Teach them some freakin' manners and punish them if they prove incapable. No, it's not quick or easy, but it's the right approach. Punishing everyone for the behavior of a few is insanity.

 

[Suns_PSD]

1) Calling out males is sexist. I know plenty of women that shred too.
2) Every single street legal car in the world can exceed the speed limit. Should cars also be artificially limited to posted speeds?
3) Every single non-motorized MTB can exceed reasonable speeds downhill. The existence of a motor is irrelevant.
4) Many of us shuttle to trailheads on roads and/or ride on private land and/or mixed-use trails that allow motorized vehicles. I do all 3 almost every time I ride.

I could give plenty more examples, but I hope you get the point. Personal responsibility needs to be embraced not dismissed. The only solution to hooligan behavior is to hold people accountable for their actions. Teach them some freakin' manners and punish them if they prove incapable. No, it's not quick or easy, but it's the right approach. Punishing everyone for the behavior of a few is insanity.

Cars have an acquisition cost and insurance cost factor that creates barriers for those younger and less responsible.
I spent years running from the cops on sport bikes, I've been to jail for 147mph in a 35. I've had a built Corvette. Heck my current E85 tuned F150 has 600rwhp.
But yeah, actually, I think it's just common sense to make vehicles speed limited to the legal speed limit and it's not an intrusion on one's privacy, since driving is a privilege, not a right. It could electronically open up once on a race track.
But the real point is that trail access is endangered by irresponsible users and that's a key difference between speeding cars and non class 1 bikes being on multiuse trails. I don't want my access threatened.

 

[venturavin]

it’s a bicycle not a gun bro. Little different but I get your analogy lol.

Yeah I guess I’m to the point that I don’t care to argue it anymore. The avinox is here and you guys have to deal with it. With how many manufacturers are adopting it now I’m sure banning them will be difficult with the amount of money involved. I didn’t manufacture the motor so you can’t be upset with me for purchasing a bike with class 1 mode. If you guys get so angry you get them banned in your area then whatever lol. I’m done arguing for the guys that want this motor in your areas.

I do see both sides of this argument. I totally understand where you’re coming from. I just think you guys are kind of fear mongering imo. I don’t think the new M2s is going to get all e-bikes banned on your local trails, but by all means you guys can go get them banned if that’s what you seem to want.

You truly do not get it and you clearly are not done arguing.

 

[Brawwp]

You truly do not get it and you clearly are not done arguing.

Brada I flip sides and I’m all for the ban now. No arguments here. You guys convinced me with pure logic and comparisons to firearms and cars. I already have two Avinox bikes but I for sure won’t bring them to your trails so ban away!

 

[AirKuhl]

But the real point is that trail access is endangered by irresponsible users

We agree on this key point. Irresponsible people are irresponsible.

Perhaps some of you guys are too young to remember when the very idea of MTB was the topic of banning. Riding bicycles on trails was irresponsible and endangered hikers and horses. Should we re-open the debate on banning all MTB's since a few idiots act like idiots? If not, why not? An analog bike is at least as fast if not faster downhill.

It's not the "thing", it's the person using the "thing" that's the problem. Have big brother take away one "thing" (from all of us including the vast majority of polite and responsible users) and they'll find ways of achieving peak douchiness on some other "thing".