My last none E Bike pre 18 was a Spec 650B this would do 37mph on a flat. My AMflow cuts out at 28,5.
Power Struggle: Who Controls the Future of E‑MTB?
- Thread starter Rob Rides EMTB
- Start date
Bogdan_CH
Active member
Lake it more basic. Show me how many bike motors out there people have increased their stock power from what the manufacter numbers ? Not sure if there are any
Now, how many top speed unristricted bikes are there ? Well....
You either missread what I wrote or you've missed the point, I gave the example that a current gen bikes have MORE than enough power to climb almost anything. If that's not enough, you either have to work on the other part of the embt assist (rider) or missed the sport. Why we hide the fact that EMTB is just not for EVERYONE !
Do a search here for desrestriction. You’ll soon see it’s a decently large number. It’s just not that hard to find.
I never mentioned the US. Not once. Due to your trail access issues and tribal culture, the US market is insignificant compared to the rest of the world in eMTB penetration percentage. There’s a few areas that are doing OK but nationally, not really. You might sort that out (I hope you do) but for now the % of MTB to eMTB is higher pretty much everywhere else in the world. Where I ride it’s around 50% and growing. Europe is around the same, I believe. The eMTB market isn’t US centric. Add on you current economic uncertainty and you shouldn’t be surprised that the US isn’t a priority market for non-US based eMTB companies.
Mt point on regulation is accurate, in a global sense. *Nominal* power output is not a hard limit in Europe or the Pacific. It’s a safety regulation based on thermal output. I actually read the legislation for several regions, including the EU and UK and New Zealand and here in Oz.. There’s a few people quoting misleading *facts* (one loud daft muppet in particular) in order to push their personal agendas or through misunderstanding of the legislation. Modern eMTB’s don’t break the rules. They aren’t *illegal* as a few claim. Simply because the legislation is so vague that compliance is a given. The only hard limit is speed. Not power. Speed and throttle usage is what determines the difference between the different classes of eBikes.,I mostly ignore the US rules because even you guys don’t really know what’s happening there at the moment. The US can’t even organise a national standard. No wonder you’re having access issues. You’ll get there but for now you’re years behind Europe and The Pacific. The rest of the world moved on already. A class one eMTB is a bicycle, legally and can be ridden anywhere any other bicycle can be ridden. Everywhere. Except the US.
Gordon
I don't spend my time researching how to hack every motor. But I know the motors I've owned can have their power increased from manufacturers settings. And that is Bafang and Shimano.
Or ......... You can increase peak power to climb better. Having just changed from a Shimano EP6 to an EP801 motor. The extra 100 Watts has vastly improved my climbing. Sections I needed to dab a foot. I can now clear without putting a foot down.
When my ordered Amflow does turn up....... <It better be bloody soon
> I know it will mean that more sections I struggle with, will be able to be cleared without dabbing a foot.
LeftItLancs
Active member
I tend to agree with this. I am a bang average rider, with basic levels of fitness and I live in a hilly part of Lancashire where hills can get so steep (on road and off) that they are hard work to even hike up on foot. To date, I have not yet found a hill I can't ride up on my gen 4, not a single one and the descents are often so steep that the brakes struggle.
What purpose would even more power achieve?
Without delving too deeply into the politics, minimal restrictions and less government interference versus rules and regulation, a percentage of riders would never be happy with any outcome anyway (judging by the comments). A selfish individualism that doesn't give a toss whether it is mixed used trails, or not, and there is more than a whiff of privileged self-entitlement. Having said that, obviously power limits that are suitable for the UK, might not be suitable in the vast open spaces of Australia or the USA.
This debate is never ending, an arms race as technology improves, but the technology already exists to make it much harder (or even impossible) to "hack" an ebike. Whether it be through a mixture of encryption, authentication and secure boots etc. Which begs the question, why have manufacturers not introduced this technology already? Personally, I believe that because they are well aware that there are rule flouters, they do just enough not to fall foul of existing rules and legislation and nothing more deliberately.
Now this photo doesn't do this climb justice. But to climb this you momentum and power. This currently is beyond even my EP801. But only just. So I'm thinking I should be able to clear this with my Amflow. When I attempt this with my current motor, depending on where I stall. It's quite precarious, and easy to fall over. So being able to clear it will without stalling will mean less chance of falling.
Granted I could get off and walk the bike up. But that's not why I ride.
Getting better is part of why I ride. And I do that by both improving myself and improving the EMTB. And having an increase in peak power of 250 watts, whilst maintaining the speed limit, will hurt no one.
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LeftItLancs
Active member
From a UK viewpoint, it's the actual riding philosophy of some ebike riders which doesn't make any sense to me, not the advances in technology which do make sense and which are inevitable.
Riders who want to make every obstacle easier to navigate by increasing peak power output, but when is enough peak power, ever going to be enough, where does it start, and where does it end?
The existing ebike cartel, self policing itself because it fears competition by outsiders like DJI?, well that won't end well will it and particularly for consumers.
All within a current legal framework of what is considered to be a pedelec and what is considered to be a motor vehicle (motorbike), blurring the lines and almost certainly guaranteeing government intervention at some point.
This ^^^
Physics deems the limits. This isn't the first over 750 watt peak power EMTB. But previous iterations were too bulky and heavy. So they didn't stick. But with technology improvements. They should be able to squeeze out more peak power, with less additional weight. But with a caveat of 250 nominal watts. There will be a physics limit to what peak power can be.
You cannot change the physics of Electricity and power consumption. So there will be a limit that creates a balance between peak and non-peak consumption. You just can't have the bike using 2000 watts for any significant time, or the non-peak power will need to be too small for too long, and make it a rubbish ride. So let innovation create the best balance. Not some arbitrary regulation.
We have 25kph and 250 watts nominal as the regulation. We don't need any further binding of the engineering hands. People comparing 25kph and 250 watts nominal to motorbikes and motor vehicles, clearly have no understanding of how the physics of pedal-assist work, and how much nominal power, motorbikes and motor vehicles produce. We're talking hundreds of times more powerful.
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LeftItLancs
Active member
You mean, like riders demanding higher peak power to conquer routes that would otherwise be impossible on lower peak power?
Each time raising it higher.
How is reaching what you claim is the limit of physics, the best balance, and the best balance for whom exactly?
Which is, what exactly is physics deeming?
In your opinion, but what does physics say?
If you want to turn it into a technical debate about the laws of physics, then provide some evidence of what that law is so it can be challenged or not.
Tell that to governments. Good luck.
Greeno
Active member
Boy for a few pages there it was getting pretty toxic as far as going off topic and personally insulting other individuals or countries for that matter. WTF…
E bikes are pretty commonplace here in So. Cal. Anyway.
Lots of guys still riding non e-bikes too.
No stink eye or comments ever I have heard.
Rode yesterday and passed maybe 6 other riders and 1/2 were on e bikes.
As far as speed goes, again, on my way back to my truck on a shared trail, with hikers, horses etc, a couple of younger guys on non e bikes go zipping past a family that was walking with their kids and dogs and startled the sh-t out of them.
So it’s just not the e-bikes sector causing desention.
When I rode by I apologized to them for my brethren acting like stooges and then rode over and talked to the guys as they were getting off their bikes.
They didn’t say boo and just took it as some old guy yacking Blah, blah, blah.
It all comes down to the individual ON the bike not the bike itself.
Used to have a bike with a bafang ultra motor w/ throttle and never had any issues riding wherever I wanted.
Currently have a gen 3 levo with less power and no throttle of course and it’s made me a better rider.
I have yet to see one instance of an out of control e bike rider OFF ROAD.
Sure a few yard sales here and there but luckily no one seriously injured.
But I have seen the results of e-bikes having issues on the road with accidents and such.
Heck there are two young lady’s that I’m guessing are going to high school and are easily doing 30+ going down the street with nary a care about any traffic bothers around them.
Even if a bike has a wattage of up to 1k who will know?
A bike deristricted for speed who will know too?
Unless your knowledgeable about specific bikes and there specs you can’t tell by looking at them if they would conform to the 750w rule.
The newer Specialized gen 4 maybe just because of the larger than normal downtube would be an eye catcher for sure but if you parked an Unno or Amflow next to it most people would probably say that the Spec has more power just from the overall looks.
Ive spoken to park rangers along the way and they have never given me a hard time as far as being on an e-bike and they sure didn’t check the power output, throttle, etc.
It all comes down to being a good steward for the sport that will determine what laws get passed.
On another note thanks for the correction on the max availible output for 21700 series battery’s.
The usual places I would order battery’s from, IMR, etc, doesent carry the higher rated cells..
So knowing that those capacities are availible now, and probably higher rated cells as well maybe, maybe we will see some of the latest and greatest cells being used to power up our rides for an increase in range as well as power.
Sorry for the long novel, back to our original episodes.
E bikes are pretty commonplace here in So. Cal. Anyway.
Lots of guys still riding non e-bikes too.
No stink eye or comments ever I have heard.
Rode yesterday and passed maybe 6 other riders and 1/2 were on e bikes.
As far as speed goes, again, on my way back to my truck on a shared trail, with hikers, horses etc, a couple of younger guys on non e bikes go zipping past a family that was walking with their kids and dogs and startled the sh-t out of them.
So it’s just not the e-bikes sector causing desention.
When I rode by I apologized to them for my brethren acting like stooges and then rode over and talked to the guys as they were getting off their bikes.
They didn’t say boo and just took it as some old guy yacking Blah, blah, blah.
It all comes down to the individual ON the bike not the bike itself.
Used to have a bike with a bafang ultra motor w/ throttle and never had any issues riding wherever I wanted.
Currently have a gen 3 levo with less power and no throttle of course and it’s made me a better rider.
I have yet to see one instance of an out of control e bike rider OFF ROAD.
Sure a few yard sales here and there but luckily no one seriously injured.
But I have seen the results of e-bikes having issues on the road with accidents and such.
Heck there are two young lady’s that I’m guessing are going to high school and are easily doing 30+ going down the street with nary a care about any traffic bothers around them.
Even if a bike has a wattage of up to 1k who will know?
A bike deristricted for speed who will know too?
Unless your knowledgeable about specific bikes and there specs you can’t tell by looking at them if they would conform to the 750w rule.
The newer Specialized gen 4 maybe just because of the larger than normal downtube would be an eye catcher for sure but if you parked an Unno or Amflow next to it most people would probably say that the Spec has more power just from the overall looks.
Ive spoken to park rangers along the way and they have never given me a hard time as far as being on an e-bike and they sure didn’t check the power output, throttle, etc.
It all comes down to being a good steward for the sport that will determine what laws get passed.
On another note thanks for the correction on the max availible output for 21700 series battery’s.
The usual places I would order battery’s from, IMR, etc, doesent carry the higher rated cells..
So knowing that those capacities are availible now, and probably higher rated cells as well maybe, maybe we will see some of the latest and greatest cells being used to power up our rides for an increase in range as well as power.
Sorry for the long novel, back to our original episodes.
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its not just experts. Most technical trails have stee climbs to get there, where more power is better. On the technical trails the power comes in handy to clear features. Trick is being able to use power, again is not an expert talent.
Here in northern Ca in the endurance capitol of the world, our trails are old gold mining trails through rocky technical sections and flowy single track trails that have been around over a 100 years. Speed is not a factor on the trails, and even when wet after a rain, you can bomb them without fear of degradation.
Now that is just sad as hell. Im in Northern Ca, and in the gold country which is all steep canyons. It could be used here. I am lucky, all bike trails worth riding are wide open to ebikes.
Right, many slow people say that. If you were able to ride fast, and you raced, you would have a different outlook.
I do agree we get stereotyped with Surrons. And your opinion on that.
Downhillr
Active member
Well, when you have a greater population than many countries along with the planet’s 4th largest economy, a world recognized public University system and supply the tech used in enabling the easy access to open discussion forums in one of the more diverse and inclusive ethnic populations you're bound to have some difficult, more complex issues to resolve. Growing up living in several states (military brat) and spending a long career working with and visiting clientele in many states I accept the warts and issues that come along with the opportunities here in CA.I agree. California is riddled with issues so definately need to keep things dumbed down but for the rest of us it should be sweet
Emailsucks98
Well-known member
Racing and actually caring about your results can be separate things. But either way eBike racing is like a sub niche of a niche. What % of people here race eBikes or eve have access to a fun eBike racing format? I'd guess like <2%.
Not about you whatsoever, but I find *some* racers can be some of the most annoying people ever. Gate-keeping and constantly bragging about the results from 10years ago. The ones I've known who get results rarely talk of racing, kudos to them.
That is wise and sage advise. Im in northern Ca and it is the same here. 70% ebikes verses 30% manuals and all the fast people are unlocked and the rangers have been nothing but polite and never once been a problem for any aspect of riding. If anything they help with trail accidents. We are not policed by anyone, and have freedom to do as we please. Now we do live in some rugged country and here stupidity means you crash and hurt yourself and your pride. You can stay here and be stupid. I belong to one of the largest ebike clubs in northern Ca, and we have some of the fastest talent. Our group is pretty dedicated to being good trail stewards, and guess what, when we want to cut loose and bomb an empty trail using all the power we have, no one cares. What I have seen in this thread, is a bunch of whiny slow people. Not you
In the right hands it is. I track/race motorcycles and often a 400 will pass me on a liter bike. And im not slow.No different on a ebike. I will grant that a more powerful bike in the "right hands" means more KOMs and trophies
Here, there is some sick talent and out of a 1000 members there is maybe 10 that are highly competitive with the most skill. These are also the most liked members that are quite modest. The slow racers are the loudest
Not here in Northern Ca. Tons of races and strava, so it is very competitive. But we do live in the endurance capitol of the world. A lot of sick talent lives and rides here. So the more powerful bikes are used and sold much faster here.
Downhillr
Active member
“NZ has more liberal laws than the US”. Now that you can see your own words belie your denial about mentioning US we can move on.
I would be interested in seeing the study surveys regarding different regions/countries sales and % you quote. I don't doubt that there are different concentrations of users and potential markets, even here our market opportunities vary in different states/regions sometimes due to geographics (mountain state vs flat plains) cultural habits (exercise, recreation opportunities) or other variables and those use/sales surveys would be enlightening.
I’m sure there are many mtb manufacturers that study potential markets for opportunities and base their decisions on what they learn about what’s needed to compete and if they have the capital and resources to be successful. Typically that internal analysis determines where they sell.
I had a (now lapsed) road racing licence for 10 years so don't pull the racing shit on me sunshine. Bless.
Emailsucks98
Well-known member
There is sick talent here too, as you may know.
So many people who already do 10k' days on 40lb meatbikes.
Strava is frowned upon here since it gets secret trails closed.
eBike motors only matter when you're pedaling.
I'm in it for the trails that drop >1000'/mile, very little pedaling happens on the DH.
That is why it's the bike- geometry, suspension, that matters to me more than the motor. After that it's range and reliability. Power and torque are least important. I like the lower power as it's more cardio.
But hey, your trails/scene are different and that's cool.
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Emailsucks98
Well-known member
As my friend who's raced CX globally once said, when getting heckled for a DNFI had a (now lapsed) road racing licence for 10 years so don't pull the racing shit on me sunshine. Bless.
I've dropped out of more races than you've been in
