Power Struggle: Who Controls the Future of E‑MTB?

[Scott M]

....
E-bikes aren’t coming — they’re already here. In 2023, over 5.1 million of them were sold across Europe, with traditional bikes only just ahead at 6.6 million. In Germany, e-bikes actually overtook analogue bikes for the first time, grabbing more than half the market. This isn’t a trend anymore — it’s a takeover. And it’s transforming everything: how we ride, how bikes are built, and what the industry believes a bike should be.

Then came the curveball.

DJI — yes, the drone company — dropped a 1000-watt, 120Nm eMTB system with sleek integration, fast charging, and power to burn. The Avinox system didn’t just raise eyebrows; it kicked the industry’s front door in. Overnight, the usual suspects — Bosch, Shimano, Specialized — found themselves playing defence. Soon after, the eMTB elite huddled in a Think Tank and proposed something unthinkable just a year earlier: a self-imposed cap on motor output.

750 watts. That’s the new line in the dirt.

Is this really about protecting trails and riding responsibly? Or is it a well-dressed panic move from brands caught flat-footed by an outsider with better tech? In this piece, we dig into what the DJI Avinox launch really triggered — and why older high-powered motors like the Haibike Flyon and Sachs RS never got the same reaction.

Discussion thread for full article:

Power Struggle: Who Controls the Future of E‑MTB?

eBikes aren’t coming. They’re already here. In 2023, over 5.1 million of them were sold across Europe, with traditional bikes only just ahead at 6.6 million. In Germany, ebikes actually overtook analogue bikes for the first time, grabbing more...

www.emtbforums.com

Great article Rob, very open minded discussion on what can be a complex and polarising topic.
Cheers,
Scott

 

[madre]

750kw wouldn't bother me. The DJI isn't a big deal because of how powerful it is, it's because it's so well integrated, light, and quiet. It'd still be the hottest motor around at 750kw.

Absolultly

 

[Astro66]

Your suggestions will only make bikes going downhill less safe

I disagree. It is well known that skiers have a greater fatality rate than snow-boarders. And that is because skiers average speed is greater than snow-boarders. Speed is the factor. Not how good their skis or snowboard is.

Reducing the capability of EMTBs will slow them down, which will result in fewer serious injuries. So if safety was the Think Tanks objective. Then they also needed to slow EMTBs downhill speed. Not just slow how quickly they get to the limiter of 25kph uphill.

And that is my point. Slowing how quickly the bikes get to 25kph uphill achieves nothing in the safety area. Because speed is what causes serious injuries. This is the case for both the rider, and someone they run into. Reducing peak power by 250Watts on a bike limited to 25kph, achieves nothing other than reducing the bikes climbing ability.

 

[Plyphon]

It's embarrassing they even had this 'summit', didn't invite DJI*, and all agreed that the power rating they should use conveniently marries up to the exact power rating of their existing motors, and then tried to wrap it all up under some self righteous guise of trail access and rider safety.

And yet very little mention of Specalized's little trick, which imho has many multiples of potential impact to trail access and safety.

The industry is embarrassing.

*The original EMTB Magazine article said they were there IIRC, but I guess that could have been false.

 

[Zimmerframe]

I disagree. It is well known that skiers have a greater fatality rate than snow-boarders. And that is because skiers average speed is greater than snow-boarders. Speed is the factor. Not how good their skis or snowboard is.

You've not seen me snowboard...

 

[TonTonUB]

Self declared think tank is only a false nose for industry needs.
Their advertisement is nothing else than a lie in disguise.
Infuriated Karens driving a manipulation.
Pathetic, and disgusting.

The only positive is that soon or late, they'll be back bitten by their own poison.

 

[Zimmerframe]

I disagree. It is well known that skiers have a greater fatality rate than snow-boarders. And that is because skiers average speed is greater than snow-boarders. Speed is the factor. Not how good their skis or snowboard is.

Reducing the capability of EMTBs will slow them down, which will result in fewer serious injuries. So if safety was the Think Tanks objective. Then they also needed to slow EMTBs downhill speed. Not just slow how quickly they get to the limiter of 25kph uphill.

And that is my point. Slowing how quickly the bikes get to 25kph uphill achieves nothing in the safety area. Because speed is what causes serious injuries. This is the case for both the rider, and someone they run into. Reducing peak power by 250Watts on a bike limited to 25kph, achieves nothing other than reducing the bikes climbing ability.

Again - this thread and the whole discussion is about motor power/torque and it's impact and how/if it should be regulated. Not picking random examples to try and prove points - even more so about limiting a bikes capabilities.

I'm sure more people ski than snowboard and the accidents and injuries differ due to the different approach. Snowboarding is like skiing with your shoe laces tied together How come the skiing world hasn't forced everyone to only use mini ski's ? Why aren't parachutes all limited to at least 200m2. Why aren't all divers permanently attached by a 5m wire. How come runners aren't forced to wear steel toe capped wellies which are 4 sizes too big ? How come fishing hasn't been banned near water(the most dangerous sport).

If you want to "shittify" EMTB's , then you have to Shittify MTB's and gravel bikes and road bikes. Shittify roller skates. Shittify surfboards. Shittify Skateboards. Lets just make everything less capable so no one goes fast ? Oh look, didn't people try going as fast as possible on ordinary bikes down hills 100 years ago - because it was fun and we're human and will do it anyway ? That was before Strava - lets ban Strava too as that makes people want to go fast.

 

[Paul Mac]

I am amazed that even on an emtb forum where you'd think people would be more open minded and reasoned, you still get people who think that the way they do the sport is the way everyone else should.
Talk of, I ride an SL bike and don't use that power, so nobody needs anymore.
If nobody wanted what DJI are offering the whole stock for 2025 of the new Unno wouldn't have sold out in a day!

 

[Fangs2k]

I am amazed that even on an emtb forum where you'd think people would be more open minded and reasoned, you still get people who think that the way they do the sport is the way everyone else should.
Talk of, I ride an SL bike and don't use that power, so nobody needs anymore.
If nobody wanted what DJI are offering the whole stock for 2025 of the new Unno wouldn't have sold out in a day!

Is it difficult to sell about 20 bikes that quickly?! I expect I’ll never see an Unno in the wild, besides it would have sold just as well with the Bosch motor I’m sure.

As a member on a few forums, one thing I’d say is that a lot of people on here aren’t reasoned! If you disagree with the ‘more powaaahhhh’ line you’re dismissed as a ‘Karen’.

If you say you’re happy with an e-bike being just like a bike that gives you Wallace & Grommit style ‘power legs’ (TM) then you’re asked why you’re even riding an e-bike in the first place…

To be fair though, how you ride an e-bike now will of course colour your views on what they should be like going forwards. The problem is that the current restrictions (and they don’t vary that much by country, just assisted speeds) don’t suit everybody. Those that want more power seem unwilling to accept that perhaps current e-bikes requiring no registration or licence etc and that can legally be ridden anywhere a bicycle can be ridden weren’t really meant to do what they want them to do.

I can’t remember where or in which thread I said it, and it got a turd emoji for my trouble, but you can already get higher powered e-bikes that require licences and insurance etc, but you can’t ride them legally wherever you like. On private land though, like Mx motorcycles, fill yer boots.

But, the rights of way legislators at least here in the UK are not in a million years ever going to accept higher powered and faster motorised bikes on shared trails. We can ask all we like, but it won’t happen, just like manufacturers aren’t going to make ‘UK specials’ even if we didn’t adopt whatever the EU regs end up being.

It’s a complicated issue for sure, and I’m pleased that there’s at least some kind of attempt to keep a lid on things and agree a way forward before some uninformed authority steps forward and makes a decision for us.

 

[Paul Mac]

Is it difficult to sell about 20 bikes that quickly?! I expect I’ll never see an Unno in the wild, besides it would have sold just as well with the Bosch motor I’m sure.

As a member on a few forums, one thing I’d say is that a lot of people on here aren’t reasoned! If you disagree with the ‘more powaaahhhh’ line you’re dismissed as a ‘Karen’.

If you say you’re happy with an e-bike being just like a bike that gives you Wallace & Grommit style ‘power legs’ (TM) then you’re asked why you’re even riding an e-bike in the first place…

To be fair though, how you ride an e-bike now will of course colour your views on what they should be like going forwards. The problem is that the current restrictions (and they don’t vary that much by country, just assisted speeds) don’t suit everybody. Those that want more power seem unwilling to accept that perhaps current e-bikes requiring no registration or licence etc and that can legally be ridden anywhere a bicycle can be ridden weren’t really meant to do what they want them to do.

I can’t remember where or in which thread I said it, and it got a turd emoji for my trouble, but you can already get higher powered e-bikes that require licences and insurance etc, but you can’t ride them legally wherever you like. On private land though, like Mx motorcycles, fill yer boots.

But, the rights of way legislators at least here in the UK are not in a million years ever going to accept higher powered and faster motorised bikes on shared trails. We can ask all we like, but it won’t happen, just like manufacturers aren’t going to make ‘UK specials’ even if we didn’t adopt whatever the EU regs end up being.

It’s a complicated issue for sure, and I’m pleased that there’s at least some kind of attempt to keep a lid on things and agree a way forward before some uninformed authority steps forward and makes a decision for us.

The genie is out of the bottle now, and the DJI motor hasn't broken the laws as they currently stand.
So OK let's have a cap, but let's make it a nice round figure like 1000w.

 

[madre]

It's embarrassing they even had this 'summit', didn't invite DJI*, and all agreed that the power rating they should use conveniently marries up to the exact power rating of their existing motors, and then tried to wrap it all up under some self righteous guise of trail access and rider safety.

And yet very little mention of Specalized's little trick, which imho has many multiples of potential impact to trail access and safety.

The industry is embarrassing.

*The original EMTB Magazine article said they were there IIRC, but I guess that could have been false.

Right now the only source we have on this is “ Trust me Bro ” they have not been there. Whether they were invited is unclear. Whether there was a representative who spoke for them etc... I wouldn't see a conspiracy there for a start.

 

[Astro66]

Again - this thread and the whole discussion is about motor power/torque and it's impact and how/if it should be regulated. Not picking random examples to try and prove points - even more so about limiting a bikes capabilities.

That's what I'm doing. Did you read the OP.

Is this really about protecting trails and riding responsibly? Or is it a well-dressed panic move from brands caught flat-footed by an outsider with better tech?

The regulation is being justified under a safety and responsibility banner. My point is reducing peak power from 1000Watts to 750Watts, when the bike is speed limited to 25kph, doesn't achieve any safety improvement. I have detailed why.

So it's pointless regulation. Other than to hobble DJI's advantage. Which, as referred to by Rob, I believe is the true motive of the industry reps who proposed it.

There would be so many better ways to protect trails and encourage responsible riding. I have mentioned them. I have more. It's seems awfully coincidental that this group, that didn't include DJI, landed on a solution that just happen to take away DJI's advantage, and not disadvantage any of them, whilst also not actually achieving the regulations objectives.

 

[irie]

That's what I'm doing. Did you read the OP.


The regulation is being justified under a safety and responsibility banner. My point is reducing peak power from 1000Watts to 750Watts, when the bike is speed limited to 25kph, doesn't achieve any safety improvement. I have detailed why.

So it's pointless regulation. Other than to hobble DJI's advantage. Which, as referred to by Rob, I believe is the true motive of the industry reps who proposed it.

There would be so many better ways to protect trails and encourage responsible riding. I have mentioned them. I have more. It's seems awfully coincidental that this group, that didn't include DJI, landed on a solution that just happen to take away DJI's advantage, and not disadvantage any of them, whilst also not actually achieving the regulations objectives.

Or it could be read another way.

Namely that in order to avoid a motor power war which risks eMTBs ultimately being reclassified as Motor Vehicles, current motor manufacturers have voluntarily and informally agreed to limit motor power to avoid this risk. A situation which DJI is attempting to exploit for commercial reasons, and for no risk to itself since it previously had no market share in eMTBs.

 

[Greeno]

Post #69 I gotta disagree.
If the Unno bike came out with the Bosch motor I feel the rush to buy one and sell out in a day would not of happened.
It has everything to do with DJI’s tech and not the bike per se.
When Amflow came out did anybody tout the design of the bike or components?
Nope.
Most bikes are pretty much the same as far as geo, frame material, components etc.
Now throw in the mix a lighter version motor in a smaller package, even if it has the same output perameters as the top of the line motors ( Bosch, Brose, Shimano ) and you have something different.
A larger more power dense battery in a slimmed downtube shape and now you got something better.
Remember most e-bike brands were striving to get as light as possible.

And the fact that the DJI motor was smaller, lighter, and more powerful was just a slap in the face of an industry that had gotten complacent in offering any substantial advancement in tech.
Sure we got AXS drivetrains, seatpost, and Some gearbox style motors but nothing groundbreaking.

Now under the guise of “safety“ they want to “regulate” motor specs closer to their limitations kinda tells me what they really want.
DJI is a clear threat and instead of getting busy with their own innovations and grabbing the top spot they want to change the rules now to better suit their designs.
Just my .02

 

[Paul Mac]

Post #69 I gotta disagree.
If the Unno bike came out with the Bosch motor I feel the rush to buy one and sell out in a day would not of happened.
It has everything to do with DJI’s tech and not the bike per se.
When Amflow came out did anybody tout the design of the bike or components?
Nope.
Most bikes are pretty much the same as far as geo, frame material, components etc.
Now throw in the mix a lighter version motor in a smaller package, even if it has the same output perameters as the top of the line motors ( Bosch, Brose, Shimano ) and you have something different.
A larger more power dense battery in a slimmed downtube shape and now you got something better.
Remember most e-bike brands were striving to get as light as possible.

And the fact that the DJI motor was smaller, lighter, and more powerful was just a slap in the face of an industry that had gotten complacent in offering any substantial advancement in tech.
Sure we got AXS drivetrains, seatpost, and Some gearbox style motors but nothing groundbreaking.

Now under the guise of “safety“ they want to “regulate” motor specs closer to their limitations kinda tells me what they really want.
DJI is a clear threat and instead of getting busy with their own innovations and grabbing the top spot they want to change the rules now to better suit their designs.
Just my .02

Exactly, where's all the evidence to support this move?
Why is 750w just right but 1000w is way too much.
Amflos have been out a while now in the UK, where are all the reported accidents and incidents to support this argument?
It's a total witch hunt and I hope that DJI doesn't budge.
Innovate or die.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Amflos

Is this a dentist joke ?

 

[Fangs2k]

Do people really think that it’s easier for Bosch/Shimano/Brose et al to try and change a whole regulatory framework with all the inherent risk and no guarantee of success rather than just reverse engineer the DJI?

The Avinox is a great motor/battery/system no doubt, even if longevity is still to be proven, but it’s a bit much to think it can’t be at least matched.

 

[DirkWisely]

Do people really think that it’s easier for Bosch/Shimano/Brose et al to try and change a whole regulatory framework with all the inherent risk and no guarantee of success rather than just reverse engineer the DJI?

The Avinox is a great motor/battery/system no doubt, even if longevity is still to be proven, but it’s a bit much to think it can’t be at least matched.

On the other hand, if it was so easy, why didn't Bosch do anything like it already? Though I agree that there's no secret sauce here, just good engineering.
Big companies can be pretty incompetent, and as long as someone else is willing to invest the capital to compete, they can be quickly put out to pasture.

 

[ZR1]

I think they are slow and have their own roadmaps

I'm sure Specialized could have changed to a denser battery and given us a Gen4 with a decent downtube but it wouldn't be as profitable

If you can band together and ban the opposition they are quids in

 

[Amber Valley Guy]

I remember reading a few years ago (2019/2020?) that German state regulations for ebike motors stated a max of 36v nominal and 15amp giving a total max theoretical power of 540 watts for a 250w continuous motor.
Whether this was ever written into German or the wider EU regulations I honestly don't know, but if you think back only a few years this was the area that Bosch, Shimano and Brose worked in (IE a 500-550w peak) which makes sense (at least to me).

 

[Greeno]

With The R&D budgets these established bike brands have they absolutely could have produced something comparable to the DJI offering.
But that’s not the long term game plan I feel.
If they gave us the ultimate, or something more innovative all at once as opposed to a little bit every six months or a year who would purchase a newer version after those hit the market?
By giving us a little bit at a time we keep wanting the newest and greatest right?

The newer 21700 cells that have just recently came out have an output of 5.3ahr.
Previous best cell only produced 5ahr.
My current battery: 5ahr x (4 groups of battery’s in parallel ) x 36v = 720w or probably labeled 700w.
So the new Gen 4 with the newer cells at 5.3ahr x (only 3 groups of battery’s in parallel) x 52v = 826:8w or probably labeled 840w.
Going from 36v (10 battery’s in series) to 52v (14 batterys in series) means additional weight unless they go from 10x4 to 14 x3 which only adds (2) additional cells but gives an increase of like in wattage of 17%, pretty good trade off for the minuscule amount of increase in weight.

Small increases at a time lengthen the long term objective of making $ I get it.

Just don’t say it’s all in the name of the riders safety.

 

[irie]

On the other hand, if it was so easy, why didn't Bosch do anything like it already? Though I agree that there's no secret sauce here, just good engineering.
Big companies can be pretty incompetent, and as long as someone else is willing to invest the capital to compete, they can be quickly put out to pasture.

Read my above post #73

 

[DirkWisely]

Read my above post #73

It makes no sense to try to break into a market and destroy it at the same time. Sure, they're not risking an existing business, but they're risking a large capital expenditure.

 

[Astro66]

which risks eMTBs ultimately being reclassified as Motor Vehicles

The motors are restricted to 25kph. Why do people keep making silly comparisons to unrestricted Motor Vehicles or unrestricted Ebikes which can do extremely dangerous speeds ? If you restricted a motor vehicle to 25kph. There would be very little danger in driving one even if it made a little extra power than a standard motor vehicle that actually has no speed restriction.

The peak power is irrelevant if you can only go 25kph, especially when we are talking about peak power gains of less than 300 watts. As I have stated. It will only help in being able to climb technical climbs, which is the whole point of the new sport being created by EMTBs. This is something that DJI is across, and other manufactures are just starting to cotton onto.

EMTBs with good climbing ability, make climbing as much fun as downhill. And climbing is much safer than downhill, due to the fact you cannot go more than 25kph. So why would you introduce regulation that discourages climbing?

People charging downhill is far more dangerous to both the rider and people using the trails, for these two reasons. You are travelling so much faster. And travelling in the same direction as gravity is pulling you, meaning you will travel much further, if you need to stop suddenly.

So lets use Physics to guide regulations. Not emotions, or the industry trying to stifle new innovators with ground breaking tech.

So IMO, lets maintain the 25kph limit but let physics limit the peak power, so manufacturers can continue to innovate, and produce better climbing EMTBs, without making them more dangerous to riders and the public using shared trails.

Oh BTW. Since changing from my Shimano EP6 to the Shimano EP801 motor, which has 100 watts more peak power and access to a racing firmware that gives more overrun. I am falling far less, because I can now just go straight over obstacles when climbing, where before I needed to take a poorer line, because I lacked the power and momentum, resulting in me stalling and falling over. More peak power has made climbing much safer for me, and is why I am so against these new protectionist regulations.

 

[Churchill]

I’m riding hundreds of miles of the same single track trails on my Specialized Kenevo as I ride on my 250 pound, 65 horsepower, 70 mile per hour motocross dirtbike. The same trails I ride my Santa Cruz Nomad on. The same trails that get a ton of use by hikers and horse riders. Holy crap you guys worry way too much!

 

[Astro66]

I’m riding hundreds of miles of the same single track trails on my Specialized Kenevo as I ride on my 250 pound, 65 horsepower, 70 mile per hour motocross dirtbike. The same trails I ride my Santa Cruz Nomad on. The same trails that get a ton of use by hikers and horse riders. Holy crap you guys worry way too much!

Motorcross Dirtbike riding is banned in all National Parks and most State Forests in Australia. We do not want EMTBs going the same way. But Peak Power isn't the problem. Unrestricted Illegal Ebikes are the problem.

 

[Churchill]

Motorcross Dirtbike riding is banned in all National Parks and most State Forests in Australia. We do not want EMTBs going the same way. But Peak Power isn't the problem. Unrestricted Illegal Ebikes are the problem.

I’m sorry you guys are having that problem. There are obviously many trails in my area that don’t allow dirtbikes as well. Just making the point that all power levels can get along.

However, I already heard all these pearl clutching worries about e-bikes being too powerful (when compared to pedal bikes) when they first started appearing 10 years ago. None of the naysayers were right and e-bikes are insanely popular, accepted and common in my area.

Sorry, you can’t unsee the Unno Myth and you can’t un-know the 120nm of torque from the DJI motors. I won’t ever buy another e-bike unless it has 120nm or more. I’ve always wanted more climbing power.

Just buy what you want and fight to keep riding what you want instead of capitulating to a bunch of incompetent bureaucrats that want to regulate how many sheets of toilet paper you’re allowed to use.

 

[Winford]

I like e-bikes but I don't think that a modern full power e-bike is any slower on a tight trail than say an early CR125.

We better be very careful...

You have never seen talent yet. Im not that good, and I would own every KOM on everything but small tight technical trails where small is always faster.

 

[Winford]

There will always be a minority of eMTB riders who would always prefer more power, and even more power!

Yes riders with skill are the minority. Learning to use what you have is a skill that only belongs to the minority.

 

[Winford]

The motors are restricted to 25kph.

Oh hell no! Thats weak. And not here. Most derestrict the speed cap of 32 kph anyway