Rob Rides EMTB

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Just spoke with some of the Shimano team specialists and an OEM partner manager and product manager for EP8.

They are well aware of the rattle noise and are hoping to be able to take some steps to reduce it (although they probably will not totally eliminate the noise) with some alterations to manufacturing tolerances.

They hope to be able to do this in conjunction with the production line changes to make sure it passes the ISO test.

If not in the first run, they hope to be able to make future running changes to the motor to be able to reduce the noise.

So BEST case they are able to reduce it somewhat before EP8 goes into full production.
 

jimbob

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From what I can see, Shimano aren't covering themselves with glory here. How it's possible to launch a product which doesnt meet specification, especialy as the lauch has been delayed, is beyond me. I know it is easy to end up with a product which doesnt function in the real world as expected, but this has clearly not been tested correctly during development, or there is a coverup going on...

A great shame, as I imagine it will do a lot of damage to their market share.
 
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smtkelly

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@Rob Rides EMTB

I'm fortunate enough to own a rally car. Whines, clunks, rattles are part of the process. If I was to pick one the Diff is particularly irking clunk at low speeds (feels like a loose drive shaft), but its just how it is made for speed not refinement. Along with all the metal bushes, clutch chatter, sound deadening in the form of ear plugs, squeeling brakes, etc. It took a long time to have trust there was nothing wrong and this is from someone whose friend experienced a knocking sound on a track day that turned out to be wobbling wheels hitting calipers from a botched wheel refurb >.<

Its why regulars cars come with rubber bushings, sound mats, etc at the expense of feel and weight.

I can see you point though; a loose ratterling sound can feel unsettling when you are putting your faith in a bike. I'm in the same boat when it comes to rattles if its constant I think I could tune it out if its random each time then if would prick my anxiety something has come loose. Maybe you are more aware of noises as the bikes you ride change often and you not the sole user so its hard to have a normal base line for rattles. Then again if it saves 30% of drag maybe its worth it.

So agrued myself to stale mate and comes down to 'can you live with it?'
 

STATO

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From what I can see, Shimano aren't covering themselves with glory here. How it's possible to launch a product which doesnt meet specification, especialy as the lauch has been delayed, is beyond me. I know it is easy to end up with a product which doesnt function in the real world as expected, but this has clearly not been tested correctly during development, or there is a coverup going on...

A great shame, as I imagine it will do a lot of damage to their market share.
Not the first time its happened in recent history with bike manufacturers.

Shimano silent XTR hubs? never made it to production, despite prototypes being shown to journalists.
SRAM disc brake recall, HUGE HUGE loss for SRAM on their first road bike disc brake (Way bigger market than the EP8)

I'm sure there are others but not any off the top of my head.
 
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RickBullotta

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They wouldn’t want to canibalise new bike sales
For large manufacturers, yes, but for smaller manufacturers with a less frequent frame refresh/update cycle, it is a viable option. It isn't feasible to take the depreciation hit on a 2 year old eMTB just to get a small feature. I guess for some people it's fine to do that, but not most.
 

STATO

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For large manufacturers, yes, but for smaller manufacturers with a less frequent frame refresh/update cycle, it is a viable option. It isn't feasible to take the depreciation hit on a 2 year old eMTB just to get a small feature. I guess for some people it's fine to do that, but not most.
Im sure manufacturers or 3rd party could make a frame fit different motors or batteries, but manufacturers actually being able to buy motors to fit to frames requires contracts, and i think most suppliers will have stipulations or at least not give a good price to the buyer if they wont commit to certain terms. And given many are not actively selling motors to the public, it might be a dead end.
 
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rb.

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Not the first time its happened in recent history with bike manufacturers.

Shimano silent XTR hubs? never made it to production, despite prototypes being shown to journalists.
SRAM disc brake recall, HUGE HUGE loss for SRAM on their first road bike disc brake (Way bigger market than the EP8)

I'm sure there are others but not any off the top of my head.
Lol, My friend ran one of those Silent Shimano hubs for a while. He was randomly given it with the disclaimer, “You can run this, but it can and will fail at any given time”.

SRAM sticky piston brake levers in their Guides was a major issue.
 
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B1rdie

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Black marckets will raise and people shall see these motors being sold under coats on subway stations.
 

TheBikePilot

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@Rob Rides EMTB

I'm fortunate enough to own a rally car. Whines, clunks, rattles are part of the process. If I was to pick one the Diff is particularly irking clunk at low speeds (feels like a loose drive shaft), but its just how it is made for speed not refinement. Along with all the metal bushes, clutch chatter, sound deadening in the form of ear plugs, squeeling brakes, etc. It took a long time to have trust there was nothing wrong and this is from someone whose friend experienced a knocking sound on a track day that turned out to be wobbling wheels hitting calipers from a botched wheel refurb >.<

Its why regulars cars come with rubber bushings, sound mats, etc at the expense of feel and weight.

I can see you point though; a loose ratterling sound can feel unsettling when you are putting your faith in a bike. I'm in the same boat when it comes to rattles if its constant I think I could tune it out if its random each time then if would prick my anxiety something has come loose. Maybe you are more aware of noises as the bikes you ride change often and you not the sole user so its hard to have a normal base line for rattles. Then again if it saves 30% of drag maybe its worth it.

So agrued myself to stale mate and comes down to 'can you live with it?'
Agree to a degree. However, bikes should run silent in terms of rattles. People spend hours on bikes trying to eliminate them.

On this one it's not so much the rattle going downhill, I could maybe put up with that. The Bosch is liveable to me and does just that. This is just plain loud on flat fire roads as well as downhill.

It's more nothing can be done about it in the short term, and it feels a little like 2 steps forward 1.5 back..

Just watched the Colin McRae documentary which was really sad, but man he was being reckless with his Helicopter..
 

Gary

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However, bikes should run silent in terms of rattles. People spend hours on bikes trying to eliminate them.
Yeah. But motors shouldn't run silent.
You ride a bike with a motor.
I sorta see your point but I'd go back to riding normal bikes if you want silence. They're not only quieter. They're a lot more fun to ride. 😏
 
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TheBikePilot

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Yeah. But motors shouldn't run silent.
You ride a bike with a motor.
I sorta see your point but I'd go back to riding normal bikes if you want silence. They're not only quieter. They're a lot more fun to ride. 😏
I completely agree :)

This just isn't, to me, an acceptable level of rattle. Some may be absolutely fine with it.

It's also one of the most natural feeling, like the E8000. It's the quietest when peddling, noisiest when coasting. Kinda like they've robbed Peter to pay Paul..
 
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Dirtnvert

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I have a feeling emtbs won't get much quieter without some kind of radiator liquid coolant. They could use a belt like brose but thats debatable whether we can call that proven. With non belt emtb motors like the ep8 they could add sound insulation but thats also heat insulation and i suspect that would be a contributor to premature bb bearing failure as well as torque sensor failure. Lighter battery tech might be tge next revolution so the weight they lose czn be partially taken up by a mini radiator /coolant system with an insulated motor casing with heat exhaust out the top of the casing into the frame
 

knut7

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I think we forget that E8000 bikes aren't completely silent while coasting/descending either. The new noise from the EP8 does add to the over-all noise level. The 2021 Merida sounds noisier than the 2020 in my clips, but it's not a huge margin. And not in all situations. I'll post more clips later. For now all I got is this section of my EP8 review.

Do people think the difference in noise between the 2020 and 2021 eOne-Sixty is a dealbreaker?
 

Waynemarlow

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I have a feeling emtbs won't get much quieter without some kind of radiator liquid coolant. They could use a belt like brose but thats debatable whether we can call that proven. With non belt emtb motors like the ep8 they could add sound insulation but thats also heat insulation and i suspect that would be a contributor to premature bb bearing failure as well as torque sensor failure. Lighter battery tech might be tge next revolution so the weight they lose czn be partially taken up by a mini radiator /coolant system with an insulated motor casing with heat exhaust out the top of the casing into the frame
Belts have been proven, virtually every agricultural machine runs with belts and are reliable in pretty extreme conditions over 1000's of hours and they are the best for sound dampening. Heat, forget sound deadening materials, you'll lock the heat in and motors do not like heat, radiaters and coolants, that's weight which we're trying to get rid of, metal to metal gears without an extreme oil lubricant means shortened life, metal to specialised plastic gears are quiet but limited by the limited size of the engine to tiny gears which can't handle the loads, oh the conundrums but where are the oil filled gearboxes every car on the planet has been using for 100 years or more ?
 

R120

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Interestingly shown on what appears to be a YT, but no clear pics of the motor

Screenshot 2020-09-05 at 12.02.12.png
 

R120

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Yeah I was trying to find your pic to quote - you try them?

Gotta say the Canyon approach whilst not as integrated looks better IMO, personally not such as fan of the lack of adjustment on integrated setups but the Canyon one in particular does look very trick.

Screenshot 2020-09-05 at 13.32.55.png


Screenshot 2020-09-05 at 13.33.05.png
 

Rob Rides EMTB

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If anyone was wondering about peak power on the EP8, I asked, and was told that it has a mechanical peak power of 500watts.

In comparison to other peak power output from other motors:
560 watts on Brose Mag S on Levo
650 watts on Bosch Gen 4 (allegedly)
 

JetSedgwick

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If anyone was wondering about peak power on the EP8, I asked, and was told that it has a mechanical peak power of 500watts.

In comparison to other peak power output from other motors:
560 watts on Brose Mag S on Levo
650 watts on Bosch Gen 4 (allegedly)
isn't it weird to come out with a new product that doesn't exceed the specs of the existing competition? this is arms race 101.
 

LevoLover7

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If anyone was wondering about peak power on the EP8, I asked, and was told that it has a mechanical peak power of 500watts.

In comparison to other peak power output from other motors:
560 watts on Brose Mag S on Levo
650 watts on Bosch Gen 4 (allegedly)
the truth is...

Bosch CX4 550W not 650W
Brose Mag S just above 500W but less than CX4
 

LevoLover7

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What’s the source? Specialized quote the Brose Mag S as 560w.

A Bosch employee told me the CX4 was 650. Happy to stand corrected with some further info 👍
Let's have a look at the performance charts. Both motors nominally require 250 watts of continuous power - that is the legal regulation. Does that also mean that the motors are all the same? No. You have to know: a pedelec motor is not regulated in terms of its peak performance. So north the 2020 Bosch CX with approx. 550 watts peak power on paper more power than the Brose DriveS with its just over 500 watts. In practice, these numbers can also be "eaten" by the tires. The wrong air pressure in the tire alone can make a difference of up to 40 watts. A small victory in the quartet for eMTBers is achieved with the Brose in terms of torque: there it is 90Nm to 85Nm for the Bosch CX Generation 4. But: what are these numbers in practice?

source but in German 🤗

 

Sean1.0

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peak power (or any power) is not 'the specs'... thankfully. Maybe its just me but a power arms race is the last thing I am interested in or want to see driving development.
 

Matt_Rider

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Just spoke with some of the Shimano team specialists and an OEM partner manager and product manager for EP8.

They are well aware of the rattle noise and are hoping to be able to take some steps to reduce it (although they probably will not totally eliminate the noise) with some alterations to manufacturing tolerances.

They hope to be able to do this in conjunction with the production line changes to make sure it passes the ISO test.

If not in the first run, they hope to be able to make future running changes to the motor to be able to reduce the noise.

So BEST case they are able to reduce it somewhat before EP8 goes into full production.
What will that mean for bies that have already been built and are on the way? Will they be subject to a recall to help reduce these noises?
 

Forever Wild

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The article says, “This means it can deliver high power for a longer period before power is reduced to 250W.”

So... when the motor warms up it has the same power as a Levo SL?