My thoughts and observations on the 240WH EnergyPak plus booster.

[malc101]

I've only done a few rides with the booster, but more than a few things are on my mind. First of all, according to the documentation, it only switches on when your main battery hits 10 percent or so, then the power fully switches to the second battery, until that runs out, then it switches back to the main battery for the final 10 percent. This has a few problems. I am assuming that the battery pack is a 10s2p configuration of cells, so those 2p cells will be pushed very hard compared to the 5p configured ones in the main pack. It is clearly not the same as having a full 865wh (625+240wh) as the main pack. Additionally, the battery is being operated in exactly the way they tell you not to operate batteries for longevity. The battery needs to be at 100 percent, and it may not get used on a ride and will sit there at full charge for perhaps weeks. Then, when you do need it, you beat it down to dead before it switches back over. This can't be a good thing.

Does anyone have any long term info on the behavior, power, longevity of the EnergyPak Plus?

 

[anfos]

If you got a energypak range extender that means you intend to use it, so no issues charging it to 100% and using it. If you know you won't be needing it you can charge it to 60% (or is that not possible, if I understood you right?). It's not like there will be a big issue if you don't follow the instructions, and by the time the battery gets unusable you might have gotten another bike etc.

Don't they also have a 2 year warranty minimum?

 

[malc101]

If you got a energypak range extender that means you intend to use it, so no issues charging it to 100% and using it. If you know you won't be needing it you can charge it to 60% (or is that not possible, if I understood you right?). It's not like there will be a big issue if you don't follow the instructions, and by the time the battery gets unusable you might have gotten another bike etc.

Don't they also have a 2 year warranty minimum?

When I head out for a ride into variable conditions I do not know in advance if it will be 40 miles, 3500ft, or 50 with 4500 or so ft. One might require the booster or not. If I know I don't need it it will not carry the extra 5 lbs with me. It matters to me how this thing operates, especially for the high price. Do you have one, or intend to get one? Also, I am wondering how many miles this thing really gives. It certainly does not add 40% to the range, in direct relation to the 240 watt hours. This is probably because it is a small pack that is being heavily drawn upon.

 

[anfos]

I was thinking of adding one, but it seemed expensive for what it is like you said. If the warranty is 2 years though I wouldn't worry about it and use it.

 

[malc101]

I was thinking of adding one, but it seemed expensive for what it is like you said. If the warranty is 2 years though I wouldn't worry about it and use it.

I think the main question with any booster pack is, are the cells being run in an effective manner? Switching from a 10 series by 5 parallel main battery cell configuration, to a 10 series by 2 booster parallel configuration, as Giant does, means the cells in the booster pack are likely to be stressed harder, and lose about 20 percent of their WH capacity. Now, some of the aftermarket packs add themselves in parallel to your main battery, giving you an effective 10 series by 7 parallel cell configuration. I am about to add more parallel cells to my Haibike to as per Battery hack . Of course then I have to build a battery monitor system that watches what goes on as well, then plots it against Gaia maps. This guy's cell reviews show the effect of pulling different amounts of current from all of the common cells:

 

[DrStupid]

You make some interesting points.

How is the performance when running the 10s2p extender? Does it get warm? The proofs in the pudding yes?

My estimation is that the normal pack should produce ar least 12k miles before significant degradation. Lets say you only get 4K miles from the booster before degradation sets in... thats not all bad?

 

[malc101]

You make some interesting points.

How is the performance when running the 10s2p extender? Does it get warm? The proofs in the pudding yes?

My estimation is that the normal pack should produce ar least 12k miles before significant degradation. Lets say you only get 4K miles from the booster before degradation sets in... thats not all bad?

I am assuming that the pack is 2p, based on size and that it's 240w. Testing what it really contributes is hard due to different conditions. Someone needs to do a real world battery measurement on these bikes. When a battery is claimed to be 625wh, what does that exactly mean to the rider? Does the cell protection kick in at some point so that only 500wh is available, or is there 625 wh available to the rider?? I've got to adapt my solar power monitoring setup to monitoring 2 batteries, including the power that goes into them during charging. Good point on the longevity of the packs. 12k is a lot of riding on a mtb bike.

 

[DrStupid]

Giant packs are made by Panasonic and are likely some of the best on the market.

My own personal experience, measuring how many watts they consume during a charge, correspond perfectly with the name plate rating.

Anecdotally, even after riding as hard as I can on boost, for an entire charge, in Kentucky summer, my Trance packs never feel more than a few degrees warmer than ambient.

I'm 90% confident Panasonic and Giant are following industry standards for rating capacities, but you never know anything forsure.

 

[malc101]

Giant packs are made by Panasonic and are likely some of the best on the market.

My own personal experience, measuring how many watts they consume during a charge, correspond perfectly with the name plate rating.

Anecdotally, even after riding as hard as I can on boost, for an entire charge, in Kentucky summer, my Trance packs never feel more than a few degrees warmer than ambient.

I'm 90% confident Panasonic and Giant are following industry standards for rating capacities, but you never know anything forsure.

Yep, not arguing with pany quality. But, ..., the power that is available to the rider might not be the same as the WH rating that is claimed, by Giant and the other vendors. Much the same as when the auto industry stated crankshaft horsepower at times and rear wheel horsepower at others.

A lot of the confusion is due to the RideControl app, or at least having something that helps you better see what your burn trend is vs miles remaining. Today I went out and rode a 23 mile muddy, dirt road loop with 3,000 ft of climb. The booster did not get drained at all while riding. RideControl-bike details shows that have 52% of MAIN battery left and 100% of booster pack left with the booster pack plugged in. Garmin ANT+ battery shows 52% remaining. When I pull the booster pack plug out, the MAIN battery drops down to 34% in RideControl. First of all, the main battery charge should stay the same, regardless of the booster being plugged in or out. Secondly, I am jumping between 34 and 52 percent while adding or removing another 240 watts of power. That is an 18 pct change when I plug in a roughly 40 pct change in battery. Capacity reporting is just plain botched with the tools we are given to use.

I guess the thing that bugs me is that I bought this bike specifically to ride longer distances than my Haibike Full Seven with its 500wh battery, which gives me approx 50m and 4,000ft range. It is early, but I am not seeing anywhere near what I would expect to see when comparing the range of the Giant 865wh of battery combination compared to the Haibike 500wh of battery, given that they are both using Yamaha motors. I will jump back on the Haibike this week and ride the same route and see what it reports. I ride with boost levels 1 and 2 on both bikes, and on the Giant I have reduced the power of 1 and 2 to their mid settings in RideControl. I pedal pretty hard.

 

[DrStupid]

Yep, not arguing with pany quality. But, ..., the power that is available to the rider might not be the same as the WH rating that is claimed, by Giant and the other vendors. Much the same as when the auto industry stated crankshaft horsepower at times and rear wheel horsepower at others.

A lot of the confusion is due to the RideControl app, or at least having something that helps you better see what your burn trend is vs miles remaining. Today I went out and rode a 23 mile muddy, dirt road loop with 3,000 ft of climb. The booster did not get drained at all while riding. RideControl-bike details shows that have 52% of MAIN battery left and 100% of booster pack left with the booster pack plugged in. Garmin ANT+ battery shows 52% remaining. When I pull the booster pack plug out, the MAIN battery drops down to 34% in RideControl. First of all, the main battery charge should stay the same, regardless of the booster being plugged in or out. Secondly, I am jumping between 34 and 52 percent while adding or removing another 240 watts of power. That is an 18 pct change when I plug in a roughly 40 pct change in battery. Capacity reporting is just plain botched with the tools we are given to use.

I guess the thing that bugs me is that I bought this bike specifically to ride longer distances than my Haibike Full Seven with its 500wh battery, which gives me approx 50m and 4,000ft range. It is early, but I am not seeing anywhere near what I would expect to see when comparing the range of the Giant 865wh of battery combination compared to the Haibike 500wh of battery, given that they are both using Yamaha motors. I will jump back on the Haibike this week and ride the same route and see what it reports. I ride with boost levels 1 and 2 on both bikes, and on the Giant I have reduced the power of 1 and 2 to their mid settings in RideControl. I pedal pretty hard.

I'd try hammering your shop to get answers from headquarters. The batteries reporting status as described, I agree sounds ridiculous.

 

[malc101]

I'd try hammering your shop to get answers from headquarters. The batteries reporting status as described, I agree sounds ridiculous.

Good idea. There must be an accessible Giant tech rep somewhere. I know that my LBS was very fast to give me the Trek tech rep when I was having shifting issues on a fancy new analog bike. The included paper and online documentation on the EnergyPak plus is less than I'd expect with a $25 blender.

 

[1oldfart]

That is about 98% of most bikes
COMPROMISE
you do not want the weight all the time
you are served
I live with my 500Wh and do not complain.

 

[malc101]

That is about 98% of most bikes
COMPROMISE
you do not want the weight all the time
you are served
I live with my 500Wh and do not complain.

Yep, but the compromise can be well executed. A few improvements would make it so with the same components. As so often with tech projects, the tech people ran away with the show. Things like the RideControl app requiring an internet connection nullify all of the work done on it. The internet connection is required because the login is not cached, like it is with Strava, Gaia, and other apps. That would be a very small amount of work. Having incorrect readings reported back for the batteries has one guessing if they can do that extra loop or not. It is pretty important to me at least. Like last week, we hit snow in one of the areas and had to think about our range to know if we should either continue or turn back. There would be no turning back a few hours later when the melty snow started to freeze up on a 1200 ft down hill.

 

[malc101]

Ok, I took some readings while riding with the Plus pack. It is kind of a pain since RideControl, and whether or not the plus pack is connected gives varied readings. Stop, get a reading, pull the Plus plug out, get a reading, if internet see what RideControl has to say. I need to do this a few more times to make sense out of it since I have more questions now than I did before. My ride was mostly on level 2, with boost turned off on downhills. Bike: '21 Trance w/625wh main, 240wh plus, 100pct charged. Conditions: 40F, batteries warm before starting, lots of dirt fire road or unmaintained dirt road, some asphalt, some of dirt roads sticky. I will post elevation chart in next post.

 

[malc101]

Ok, I took some readings while riding with the Plus pack. It is kind of a pain since RideControl, and whether or not the plus pack is connected gives varied readings. Stop, get a reading, pull the Plus plug out, get a reading, if internet see what RideControl has to say. I need to do this a few more times to make sense out of it since I have more questions now than I did before. My ride was mostly on level 2, with boost turned off on downhills. Conditions: 40F, batteries warm before starting, dirt fire road, some of it sticky. I will post elevation chart in next post.
View attachment 78255

 

[Redlemon]

The more I read about this range extender, the more I'm leaning toward just buying a 2nd battery.

More power, less weight, bottle cage remains on the bike, 1 min to swap between 2 laps, +-500 $CAD more...worth it!

 

[malc101]

The more I read about this range extender, the more I'm leaning toward just buying a 2nd battery.

More power, less weight, bottle cage remains on the bike, 1 min to swap between 2 laps, +-500 $CAD more...worth it!

How would you carry the extra battery? I think an extra battery weighs about double the plus pack.

 

[malc101]

How would you carry the extra battery? I think an extra battery weighs about double the plus pack.

Actually I see that you mentioned laps. Yes, two batteries works and you can probably get a nice deal on a 500wh that someone is upgrading from. I do epic loops so I’d have to carry an extra battery which would not work.

 

[Redlemon]

Actually I see that you mentioned laps. Yes, two batteries works and you can probably get a nice deal on a 500wh that someone is upgrading from. I do epic loops so I’d have to carry an extra battery which would not work.

All of the trails here in Quebec, Canada do some kind of lap going back to the bottom of the resort, so yes swapping between two laps is really easy and quick. I really love the battery system on the 2022 Reign E+ : no cover on the battery, no tool cover removal, the clip system on the battery is awesome and the torq screw is easy to deal with.

I can then ride stress free using whatever power mode I want and will never run out of power during a day.

Finding a used battery would be awesome, but they're hard to find. Anyway even if buying a new battery, resale value will stay high and loss will be minimal.

But yeah in your case it's a whole different story! I would probably settle for the Norco VLT ebikes with their class leading 900wh batteries even if they're crazy expensive if I was doing long journeys like you.

 

[malc101]

All of the trails here in Quebec, Canada do some kind of lap going back to the bottom of the resort, so yes swapping between two laps is really easy and quick. I really love the battery system on the 2022 Reign E+ : no cover on the battery, no tool cover removal, the clip system on the battery is awesome and the torq screw is easy to deal with.

I can then ride stress free using whatever power mode I want and will never run out of power during a day.

Finding a used battery would be awesome, but they're hard to find. Anyway even if buying a new battery, resale value will stay high and loss will be minimal.

But yeah in your case it's a whole different story! I would probably settle for the Norco VLT ebikes with their class leading 900wh batteries even if they're crazy expensive if I was doing long journeys like you.

Thanks, I like the idea that those Norco bikes come with no battery, and you pick the one you want. In reality, it is not a lot more than the Trance + Plus battery.

The other option is that company making batteries in EU that actually connect in parallel with the main battery. I forget the name and I don't think they have them for Giant yet. I've got two 36v 100wh batteries from Grin that I may do the same with. The Grin batteries are highly protected but I would want to use a perfect diode on the giant side to prevent any backflow into the other battery if they are at different charge levels when initially connecting. Maybe this is a better experiment to do on the plain Yamaha motor on my Haibike, since I know that ppl in Germany have been doing this for a while.