Most Durable Drivetrain

[Gary]

I've heard you say this before, but to be honest, one of the best setups I use is an 11 speed derailleur (xt medium cage) with 10 speed (xt) shifter and cassette. Go figure.

Seeing as you ask. Here are the figures

First gen shimano 10 speed mtb shifters pull 3.6mm of cable per click and the 11 speed shifter pulls 3.4mm
So 0.2mm cable pull difference per click
Using the following shimano cassette specs we can determine the pull ratio of each mech
ie.
for a Shimano 10 speed mech to change one gear it must move the pulley 3.95mm. Knowing the shifter pulls 3.6mm per click that means the pull ratio between shifter and mech is 0.91
Meanwhile in order for a Shimano 11 speed mech to change one gear the pulley must move 3.9mm. With it's shifter pulling 3.4mm per click.
so a pull ratio of 0.87

MTB cassette spacing

Brand and model

Centre to Centre

Sprocket thickness

Spacer thickness

Total width

Shimano 10 spd	3.95 mm	1.6 mm	2.35 mm	37.2 mm
Shimano 11 spd	3.9 mm	1.6 mm	2.18 mm	39.0 mm

You can see that the pull ratios are close. but they're not the same. a pull ratio difference of 0.04 or in laymans terms a difference of 1.5mm over the width of the entire cassette

The internet is full of folk telling stories of using mismatched components and experiencing great performance from them.
The truth is mismatched components rarely ever offer as good performance as the actual correctly matched components.

I wasn't talking about the recently released 2021 shimano Deore (10, 11 and 12) drivetrain components here but previous gen 10 and 11 speed shimano mtb drivetrain components. Neither were you.

 

[TPEHAK]

I have Shimano Deore 10 speed rear sprockets + 2 speed front sprocket. I ride my 2018 Haibike with Yamaha PWX with speedbox unrestricted speed mode only with maximum support level with this 10+2 speed setup with KMC e10 EPT 10 Speed Anti-Rust Chain E-Bike Mountain Road Hybrid chain almost every day only in the rainy conditions (in dry weather I ride motorcycle) with a lot of hills and whellies along the commute route and newer wash my bicycle and rarely clean and lube my chain (I do this only when it starts squcking) and chain stretches 0.5 mm (according Park Tool gauge) only after 850 miles.

So my setup lasts in wery abusive conditions owerall 850 miles (I replace chain each 850 - 1000 miles) . But smallest 11 teeth sprocket starts skips after maybe 200-300 miles even before the chain stretches over 0.5 mm (I spend a lot of time on smallest rear sprocket along the commute at 25-30 mph). Next 13 teeth sprocket starts skiping about after 600 miles. Next 15 teeth sprocket starts skeeping after maybe 2000 miles after I replace 2-3 chains. The rest of the sprockets never skips and works uliminted amount of miles. Currently I have more than 5000 very abusive miles on my eMTB.

I tested another regular 10 speed chains and those lasted 2 times less than KMC e10 EPT 10 Speed chain.

I do not like modern 11x1 and 12x1 speed setups because of those are more expensive, less durable and have less speed range than 10x2 speed setup.

Another cool thing about 10 speed Shimano Deore you can replace three smallest sprockets (11, 13 and 15 teeth) in the cassete without replacing whole cassete. You can buy those sprokets on ebay for cheap.

So basically it looks like the cheapest setup offers the most durability, longetyvety and offers more speed range - win win!

 

[Sharpy200]

They’re all boost already mate. Are hope pro 4’s ok string enough for e bike abuse?

I have Fotus 30's with Alloy pro 4 Hubs on my E-Bike and so far no issues.

 

[Gary]

a front mech and multiple chainrings is possibly the worst thing you could add to any Ebike drivetrain for chain longevity

 

[R120]

Do shimano currently offer an XT shifter with multi shift both ways that is 10 speed compatible? I have stuck with 11 Speed XT with either SLX or XT cassette as if there's one thing I won't give up its the ability to multi shift in both directions, in fact the ability to multi shift down the cassette is a feature I use far more than doing it up the cassette.

 

[TPEHAK]

Front chainring speed system actually prolongs chain life because of chain does less bend and system requires less chiftings in order to reach necessary gear ratio. Practice shows the same result, chain in front + rear speed systems lasts longer.

 

[Gary]

No it doesn't.
It requires more shifting to sequentially change gear.
And if you'd ever actually watched how your front mech shifts the chain from a small ring to the large ring you'd be aware of the side load it's put through each and every time..

Your results show you're not getting a very good lifespan out of your chains or cassettes.

 

[Gary]

Do shimano currently offer an XT shifter with multi shift both ways that is 10 speed compatible? I have stuck with 11 Speed XT with either SLX or XT cassette as if there's one thing I won't give up its the ability to multi shift in both directions, in fact the ability to multi shift down the cassette is a feature I use far more than doing it up the cassette.

Look for an XTR 980, XT 780 or Saint 820 shifter

I seem to remember an SLX having multi shift too but it might have been the 11 speed

I only remember because I hate multishift down cassettes (from big to small sprockets). Love it the other way though.

 

[TPEHAK]

On 10+2 speed systems you usually shift sequentially using only the rear 10 speed system and you use the front 2 speed shift system only if you need extreme gear ratios or if you want to change gear ratio down or up quickly on extreme terrain with abrupt and extreme uphills and downhills.

I read the whole threat and did not find the result which would overcome my 0.5mm stretch on 850 miles.

 

[Gary]

On 10+2 speed systems you usually shift sequentially using only the rear 10 speed system and you use the front 2 speed shift system only if you need extreme gear ratios or if you want to change gear ratio down or up quickly on extreme terrain with abrupt and extreme uphills and downhills.

If you're talking about a front deraileur system, you've pretty much just backed up what I was saying.

I read the whole threat and did not find the result which would overcome my 0.5mm stretch on 850 miles.

Which really means very little. Commuting at high road speeds in high gearing Vs actual off-road mountainbiking

 

[DrStupid]

Do shimano currently offer an XT shifter with multi shift both ways that is 10 speed compatible? I have stuck with 11 Speed XT with either SLX or XT cassette as if there's one thing I won't give up its the ability to multi shift in both directions, in fact the ability to multi shift down the cassette is a feature I use far more than doing it up the cassette.

I know my xt 10 speed has the good stuff.

SL-M780-R | SHIMANO BIKE-US

bike.shimano.com

The gear indicator is removable.

 

[TPEHAK]

If you're talking about a front deraileur system, you've pretty much just backed up what I was saying.

Which really means very little. Commuting at high road speeds in high gearing Vs actual off-road mountainbiking

Commute actually stresses the chain more than off road. I commute on maximum assist level all the time and my top speed is always limited by wind resistance and assist level force is always on maximum, which means the chain is under maximum strech force all the time. Plus part of my commute is in the city stop and go traffic with a lot of gear shifting.

 

[Gary]

Commute actually stresses the chain more than off road.

Don't kid yourself

which means the chain is under maximum strech force all the time

Chains don't stretch under a constant pedalling force.
The 0.5 increase in length you are measuring happens from pin/roller wear.

 

[TPEHAK]

Higher pedaling force -->higher pin/roller wear

 

[Gary]

not from fairly consistent/smooth pedalling forces of a commute Vs mtb riding.

The same drivetrain components on a roadbike Vs a mtb, all weather riding on both with the same rider will yeild 3-4 times the mileage before worn out. mtb riding is way harder on drivetrain components.

You're clutching at straws.

A front mech has no place on an Emtb if you're going to actually ride mtb trails. The motor means you have far less control over timing of shifts and if a shift jams or you encounter chainsuck the motor will continue spinning the chainring oblivious to the damage it's about to cause. and you can't even back pedal to release a jam while riding.

Fair enough it works for your application. and fair enough you're happy with the wear rate (despite tons of faff getting there)

 

[TPEHAK]

In case of riding difficult mtb trail section on 10+2 speed systems you just use rear 10 speed shifter and do not shift the front chain-rings. You shift the front chain-rings only if you feel it is safe and will not cause jam.

 

[Gary]

Yeah. and then you also have the issue of reduced chain retention and a front mech and extra chainring to make a nice nest to clog with mud and debris. By their very nature and design a front mech and shifting profiled chainring has a tendency to drop a chain unintentionally. Again. Something you really don't ever want to happen while riding technical terrain off road with a motor assisting the chainring.
Personally I wouldn't ever need the extra range of a double ring when a 38t x 11-51 would give a high enough gear to hold a steady 30mph for a commute and a low enough gear to easily climb anything a normal mtb could. (infact an 11-46 would if you wanted to remain 10 speed)
Like i said. Fair enough that you find it works for your application but there really are far too many downsides to ever recomend it for proper Emountainbiking. I also get that not everyone who has an Emtb pursues this though.

 

[aarfeldt]

Zee FR mech and (11-36)

What's the story about the Zee line ?
Just asking...

 

[DrStupid]

Seeing as you ask. Here are the figures

First gen shimano 10 speed mtb shifters pull 3.6mm of cable per click and the 11 speed shifter pulls 3.4mm
So 0.2mm cable pull difference per click
Using the following shimano cassette specs we can determine the pull ratio of each mech
ie.
for a Shimano 10 speed mech to change one gear it must move the pulley 3.95mm. Knowing the shifter pulls 3.6mm per click that means the pull ratio between shifter and mech is 0.91
Meanwhile in order for a Shimano 11 speed mech to change one gear the pulley must move 3.9mm. With it's shifter pulling 3.4mm per click.
so a pull ratio of 0.87

MTB cassette spacing

Brand and model

Centre to Centre

Sprocket thickness

Spacer thickness

Total width

Shimano 10 spd	3.95 mm	1.6 mm	2.35 mm	37.2 mm
Shimano 11 spd	3.9 mm	1.6 mm	2.18 mm	39.0 mm

You can see that the pull ratios are close. but they're not the same. a pull ratio difference of 0.04 or in laymans terms a difference of 1.5mm over the width of the entire cassette

The internet is full of folk telling stories of using mismatched components and experiencing great performance from them.
The truth is mismatched components rarely ever offer as good performance as the actual correctly matched components.

I wasn't talking about the recently released 2021 shimano Deore (10, 11 and 12) drivetrain components here but previous gen 10 and 11 speed shimano mtb drivetrain components. Neither were you.

Your right and wrong, wrong only about my thought process. That chart, in my mind linked all shimano 10, 11, and 12 speeds mtb systems, but I have made numerous assumptions along the way. My hybrid 10 speed shouldn't work as well as it does, but it works perfectly, and reality seems sticky on this point.

 

[Gary]

There could be many reasons you're finding it working so well.
Without seeing your bike I couldn't make that call.

 

[DrStupid]

There could be many reasons you're finding it working so well.
Without seeing your bike I couldn't make that call.

It will wait. My riding mate has duplicated my results on his Focus, and he is merely a toolmaker!

Right now I'm destruction testing another zee on 11-42, with the now discontinued radr cage. This is shorter than the rd-m8000-gs by a bit, but also has less offset.

This is the shortest cage that can make the jump to 42T, on my bike with the OEM hanger, and no addition goat-link. 42T is the minimum I find acceptable with a 32CR.

A pic alongside the rd-m8000-gs shows radr cage relative to the 11 speed meduim cage. The pic has the pivot center roughly aligned though it's not perfect.

This is durable AF

 

[Mteam]

My chain is very nearly 0.75 worn at just under 400 miles. This is an ebike specific KMC chain that came on the bike when new.

I'll be replacing it with a standard shimano 12 speed XT chain, and hopefully not have to get a new cassette .

 

[Sam Browning]

Zee FR mech and (11-36)10 speed deore cassette with low end sram 10 speed chain.
Easily the most durable and cost effective clutched mech setup available.
You still have the choice of zee, Saint, deore or slx for your 10 speed shifter. All work well but are slightly different in feel and actuation

Can you use a 11-42 or 11-46 cassette with this derailleur?

 

[Sam Browning]

I started on a Sram EX1 11-48 8 speed, didn't get on with it so changed to Shimano 11-46 11 speed and although it's much better than the EX1 I'm thinking I should have gone 11-42 instead, maybe 10 speed as well although there doesn't seem to be so much choice in 10 speed...

Still got the complete EX1 setup if anyone's interested...

Do you still have the ex1?

 

[High Rock Ruti]

High Rock Ruti

I just heard that Shimano Deores selling a complete drive for $300

Warm Regards

Ruti

 

[stiv674]

Do you still have the ex1?

Sorry, sold it on eBay a few weeks ago.

 

[Gary]

Can you use a 11-42 or 11-46 cassette with this derailleur?

Zee? No.
Not unless you completely ruin it like DrStupid did above. ?

 

[Gary]

Can you use a 11-42 or 11-46 cassette with this derailleur?

You can use a Deore mech. But by going to 11-42/46 you're increasing chain length and reducing chain wrap in the smaller sprockets thus reducing longevity.
It's not like its difficult to ride up the climbs on any mtb trail I've ever ridden in 36/36 with a motor. If hunting out stupid steep technical climbs is your thing then you may well disagree but I can't say that interests me at all.

 

[wildsau2]

best drive train?
you. the driver.

 

[Sam Browning]

You can use a Deore mech. But by going to 11-42/46 you're increasing chain length and reducing chain wrap in the smaller sprockets thus reducing longevity.
It's not like its difficult to ride up the climbs on any mtb trail I've ever ridden in 36/36 with a motor. If hunting out stupid steep technical climbs is your thing then you may well disagree but I can't say that interests me at all.

Do you think shortening my current chain to the shortest possible length will

I am building up a new bike and am going to use a Shimano 10 speed drivetrain

1 - A Shimano drivetrain comprising 10 speed cassette, shifter, chain and derailleur is only £110
2 - Comparably, a SINGLE XT 12 speed cassette is £112, and is over 100 grams heavier than the 10 speed cassette
3 - I barely ever use the dinner plate cog and actually think 10 speeds make more sense on an EEB
4 - I'd rather spend the savings on better suspension
5 - Gary has been telling us this all along and he is right!

Hi Rob,

can I ask the exact model derailleur, shifter and cassette you went for?

Sorry to ask I’m just seeing many variable options of derailleur etc.

many thanks in advance