Commencal Meta Power Signature 29 2021early thoughts (TLDR?)

[IainF]

Thanks to all for the kind thoughts about the shoulder, I'm afraid jumps are my nemesis!
It's interesting however how different people's range experiences are for apparently similar setups. I find it hard to believe that the bike itself can make that much of a difference and at 85kg I'm no lightweight but I'm no Clydesdale either and I don't think I'm using Trail/Boost much. It's a puzzle. It'll be interesting to see if any people with EP8 motors comment.
I really need to be riding acoustic to get some fitness back but will hopefully be out on the Meta again soon.
@leftside really hope your own property isn't under water and that you get through it all OK.
Cheers
Iain

 

[leftside]

Thanks to all for the kind thoughts about the shoulder, I'm afraid jumps are my nemesis!
It's interesting however how different people's range experiences are for apparently similar setups. I find it hard to believe that the bike itself can make that much of a difference and at 85kg I'm no lightweight but I'm no Clydesdale either and I don't think I'm using Trail/Boost much. It's a puzzle. It'll be interesting to see if any people with EP8 motors comment.
I really need to be riding acoustic to get some fitness back but will hopefully be out on the Meta again soon.
@leftside really hope your own property isn't under water and that you get through it all OK.
Cheers
Iain

Thanks Iain. Maybe the ebike is better when coming back from injury as you can gradually increase the resistance as your body gets stronger again?

 

[Phatboi]

WARNING THIS IS A RANT

Im riding an EP8 on a Santa Cruz Bullit 630Wh battery with SC-EM800 display.

Range is going to vary massively depending on rider weight, terrain, rider fittness, rolling resitance etc. However the manner in which Shimano reports the battery useage during a ride is really poor! I used to ride a Gen 2 Levo and had it connected to my Garmin 520 which showed exact battery % and this corrolated with the 10 blue bars gradually going out. When on last bar the Garmin showed 10% and power reduced, at 5% power reduced again and at 3% power cut off completely. On the Levo the final 20% to 3% was pretty consitent with the riding I would do to get home, never ran out of battery unexpectedly and i knew I could trust the % readout to get me home.

With The EP8 its just rubbish! having only 5 bars and being unable to link to my Garmin 520 my battery % has an error range of 20% at all times! I also find that the first 3 bars will dissapear at a linear rate, however the last two bars are completely random, especially the last bar. I think it goes red straight away then sometimes flashes red before killing the motor. Sometimes it goes red then just kills the motor as happened last night after only a few minutes on one bar.

I believe the Shimano software is just really really poor and inacurate. Comapred to Specialised its in the dark ages. The display is pretty pointless anyway as I use a garmin and it just defaults to either speed or cadence all other display metric are time limited.

Im loving the Bullit but really hate the EP8 / Shimano system. Sadly it probably means ill avoid Shimano motors in future and stick to specialised & Brose. The big S seems to understand how Ebikes & Ebikers ride, Shimano doesn't have a clue!

This is just the battery range reporting, Ive not mentioned the terrible EP8 power profile, far from intuitive its got such a narrow window of cadence where it actually delivers a consitent amount of power that its really frustrating to ride compared to my old Levo. Again if the Big S can get the power delivery profile right why cant Shimano?

RANT OVER

 

[Coolcmsc]

WARNING THIS IS A RANT

Im riding an EP8 on a Santa Cruz Bullit 630Wh battery with SC-EM800 display.

Range is going to vary massively depending on rider weight, terrain, rider fittness, rolling resitance etc. However the manner in which Shimano reports the battery useage during a ride is really poor! I used to ride a Gen 2 Levo and had it connected to my Garmin 520 which showed exact battery % and this corrolated with the 10 blue bars gradually going out. When on last bar the Garmin showed 10% and power reduced, at 5% power reduced again and at 3% power cut off completely. On the Levo the final 20% to 3% was pretty consitent with the riding I would do to get home, never ran out of battery unexpectedly and i knew I could trust the % readout to get me home.

With The EP8 its just rubbish! having only 5 bars and being unable to link to my Garmin 520 my battery % has an error range of 20% at all times! I also find that the first 3 bars will dissapear at a linear rate, however the last two bars are completely random, especially the last bar. I think it goes red straight away then sometimes flashes red before killing the motor. Sometimes it goes red then just kills the motor as happened last night after only a few minutes on one bar.

I believe the Shimano software is just really really poor and inacurate. Comapred to Specialised its in the dark ages. The display is pretty pointless anyway as I use a garmin and it just defaults to either speed or cadence all other display metric are time limited.

Im loving the Bullit but really hate the EP8 / Shimano system. Sadly it probably means ill avoid Shimano motors in future and stick to specialised & Brose. The big S seems to understand how Ebikes & Ebikers ride, Shimano doesn't have a clue!

This is just the battery range reporting, Ive not mentioned the terrible EP8 power profile, far from intuitive its got such a narrow window of cadence where it actually delivers a consitent amount of power that its really frustrating to ride compared to my old Levo. Again if the Big S can get the power delivery profile right why cant Shimano?

RANT OVER

I’m am starting to wonder if this is something to do with the firmware in the display as @Gary mentioned.
As mentioned before I’ve got the black and white display on my Bullit which does connect to a Garmin, unlike the colour one which I think you must have @Phatboi . And I don’t see this problem.
Do all those seeing this issue of the battery reporting being so random have the colour display?

 

[Gary]

far from intuitive its got such a narrow window of cadence where it actually delivers a consitent amount of power that its really frustrating to ride compared to my old Levo.

How fit are you and what do you weigh?

 

[Gary]

The big S seems to understand how Ebikes & Ebikers ride, Shimano doesn't have a clue!

And how is that?

 

[Gary]

If you have a compatible garmin unit I'd fit the EW EN 100 Bluetooth junction box to connect the garmin to and remove the EM8000 display altogether.

 

[leftside]

If you have a compatible garmin unit I'd fit the EW EN 100 Bluetooth junction box to connect the garmin to and remove the EM8000 display altogether.

Nice. I never bother looking at the bike display anyway with having the Garmin attached.

 

[Phatboi]

I’m am starting to wonder if this is something to do with the firmware in the display as @Gary mentioned.
As mentioned before I’ve got the black and white display on my Bullit which does connect to a Garmin, unlike the colour one which I think you must have @Phatboi . And I don’t see this problem.
Do all those seeing this issue of the battery reporting being so random have the colour display?

Yep I've got the colour display SC-EM800

 

[Phatboi]

And how is that?

Hi Gary

It seems to me that my old Levo from 2019 had the power profiles and adjustabilty that meant ample power was on tap at almost any cadence and any gear. Once the power comes in its very constant and consistent with how "hard" you are pedalling. With my EP8 the power is very variable and only really seems reliable within a narrow cadence range.

Best way to illustrate it is; When im in Trail (7 & 75nm) climbing a steep hill, then select Turbo (10 & 75nm) there is no dicernable increase in assitance from my EP8. On my Levo you could always feel the Turbo giving you more assistance at the same peadlling input.

For me there is a huge gulf between the way i felt I could trust the power delivery on my Levo in response to my pedal effort but I cant on my EP8. I rather hope my EP8 is broken but I fear its just that Soecialised are way ahead on the software side compared to Shimano and they seem to understand what Mountain Bikers need better than Shimano do. Id like to try another EP8 that the owner says is perfect so I can get an idea of how "normal" my EP8 is.

PS I'm 6 foot, 75kg and I think not too bad fitness wise (hope this isnt a dating site.) I usually ride analog 3 times a week & ebike once a week, average ride is 20-30 miles and 3,000ft not sure if that's viewed as fit or if its even relevant to how my EP8 motor feels.

Id be interested in others opnion of how EP8 in the Bullit compares to Brose in Gen 2 Levo, for me its chalk & cheese.

 

[Coolcmsc]

Hi Gary

It seems to me that my old Levo from 2019 had the power profiles and adjustabilty that meant ample power was on tap at almost any cadence and any gear. Once the power comes in its very constant and consistent with how "hard" you are pedalling. With my EP8 the power is very variable and only really seems reliable within a narrow cadence range.

Best way to illustrate it is; When im in Trail (7 & 75nm) climbing a steep hill, then select Turbo (10 & 75nm) there is no dicernable increase in assitance from my EP8. On my Levo you could always feel the Turbo giving you more assistance at the same peadlling input.

For me there is a huge gulf between the way i felt I could trust the power delivery on my Levo in response to my pedal effort but I cant on my EP8. I rather hope my EP8 is broken but I fear its just that Soecialised are way ahead on the software side compared to Shimano and they seem to understand what Mountain Bikers need better than Shimano do. Id like to try another EP8 that the owner says is perfect so I can get an idea of how "normal" my EP8 is.

PS I'm 6 foot, 75kg and I think not too bad fitness wise (hope this isnt a dating site.) I usually ride analog 3 times a week & ebike once a week, average ride is 20-30 miles and 3,000ft not sure if that's viewed as fit or if its even relevant to how my EP8 motor feels.

Id be interested in others opnion of how EP8 in the Bullit compares to Brose in Gen 2 Levo, for me its chalk & cheese.

Fair enough — this is your experience and you ask for others’ - and mine’s above already.

Concerning your settings, you may not have them set up best for your style. For example, with torque set the same for trail and boost, you are already setting yourself up for the sensation that both modes feel similar whether up hill or down.

You describe a test going up hill with the power settings fairly close and the torque the same. I wouldn’t expect many to notice much difference between the two on any eeb when riding up a decent hill. On a stiff hill, you’re at your most likely to push the motor most quickly to whatever torque you set in the App. Whatever power is set. If the torque is the same, then they’ll more likely feel the same when most effort is demanded by the trail and your intended pace.

I’ve not ridden de-restricted - I’m not saying you do - but I can see that another factor might be that since I quite quickly exceed 25kph on the flat or down hill (if the opportunity’s there), then if derestricted to, say, 38 kph, then I can see that some of what applies under 25 kph up hill for me might apply on the flat too derestricted.

I think of power as the proportion of effort I put in vs the proportion the motor puts in. The maximum support available is limited by the torque set.

So, I think it would be easier to detect a difference on the flat or going down hill with your settings if your bike isn’t derestricted.

With my style, strength (not much at 65yrs), fitness, trails I ride, I need there to be very little difference in the power settings between Eco/Trail/Boost: I simply need whatever torque I’ve set to just kick in.

But, for the same reasons, I have a large difference in torque between Eco/Trail/Boost. Currently it‘s 27/63/85 Nm.

This means it feels like I quickly get the torque I’ve set in each mode as power is set at nearly max in each mode. It also means there’s a big perceived difference in support from the motor WITH MY STYLE between each mode.

And, crucially concerning battery endurance, it means that if I keep in Eco most of the time and switch off when sensible, I get good endurance. Compared to the Levo (as already said), with similarly sticky tyres in the same conditions, the main difference in endurance is the bigger battery in the Spec when I rode that (lots).

Riders that Turbo/Boost around the place to get back up to the top efficiently — a very reasonable riding style, but I don’t know yours — then I agree the Brose is better suited to that. It’s a well behaved brute. If you ride with greater reliance on your own strength both up and down, then I’d argue the Bosch (and to a lesser extent the EP8 which I have now) is better suited to this rider. There’ll be better progress made over longer distances.

This year’s EWS-E results support my proposition for the Bosch.

 

[Gary]

Yeah. There certainly is a huge difference. The shimano motor is slightly less powerful and also has a different power assist profile and output curve. The pick up/overrun is also very different to the brose/bosch. But that power profile gives a far more natural feeling when pedalling. You gotta remember Shimsno is in the cycling industry. Not the automotive industry.
Personally I much prefer the Shimano's more subtle assistance pick up and the fact it doesn't output stupid amounts of torque that remove any feeling of pedalling a normal bike when the rider has chosen a stupid gear.
But I'm also in a minority here who still prefers proper bikes to Emtb's.
It doesn't sound like it's for you though so I'd sell the Santa clause ASAP to limit your losses.

 

[Gary]

This year’s EWS-E results support my proposition for the Bosch.

You only have to ride off road with another rider on a bosch motor for a few minutes to realise the difference. Especially climbing.

 

[Phatboi]

Yeah. There certainly is a huge difference. The shimano motor is slightly less powerful and also has a different power assist profile and output curve. The pick up/overrun is also very different to the brose/bosch. But that power profile gives a far more natural feeling when pedalling. You gotta remember Shimsno is in the cycling industry. Not the automotive industry.
Personally I much prefer the Shimano's more subtle assistance pick up and the fact it doesn't output stupid amounts of torque that remove any feeling of pedalling a normal bike when the rider has chosen a stupid gear.
But I'm also in a minority here who still prefers proper bikes to Emtb's.
It doesn't sound like it's for you though so I'd sell the Santa clause ASAP to limit your losses.

Gary we can agree on anlog bikes being preferable to Ebikes

Ive thought about selling the Bullit and getting a gen 3 Levo BUT the Bullit is such a fantastic handling bike on the sort of steep tech trails i ride, even with my dissapointment with the EP8 im very reluctant to let it go.

 

[Coolcmsc]

Gary we can agree on anlog bikes being preferable to Ebikes

Ive thought about selling the Bullit and getting a gen 3 Levo BUT the Bullit is such a fantastic handling bike on the sort of steep tech trails i ride, even with my dissapointment with the EP8 im very reluctant to let it go.

Yup! I bought a second battery. Now I have the range, the Bullit and Profile 2 for bike parks

 

[leftside]

That's the thing right. Even with battery issues, these things are the best things since sliced bread. I'd argue my ebikes are not only the best bikes I've ever purchased, but the best things I've ever purchased full stop.