Brose motor issue

[Greg in Paris]

Hi,

Just bought German ebike 2017 with motor issue, motor works with noise coming from the side . Like belt noise . Have anyone have this case. Do you type of belt, lenght , size and type. Can I buy belt from another manufacturer than Brose, Gates for example. Thanks. Regards. Nelson in Paris .

 

[Bille]

Hi,

Just bought German ebike 2017 with motor issue, motor works with noise coming from the side . Like belt noise . Have anyone have this case. Do you type of belt, lenght , size and type. Can I buy belt from another manufacturer than Brose, Gates for example. Thanks. Regards. Nelson in Paris .

What has been happening with your motor since your post?

 

[Greg in Paris]

Hi

What has been happening with your motor since your post?

Hi,

I 've just remouve des motor from the bike. Open one side, and what's my surprise, belt in good condition, no plastic dust inside, belt tensioner not braken. Bearings also in good condition. So now I don't know in which direction so explore. Perhaps the belt is not enough tie ? Any ideas ? Thanks . Nelson in Paris

 

[Bille]

Hi

Hi,

I 've just remouve des motor from the bike. Open one side, and what's my surprise, belt in good condition, no plastic dust inside, belt tensioner not braken. Bearings also in good condition. So now I don't know in which direction so explore. Perhaps the belt is not enough tie ? Any ideas ? Thanks . Nelson in Paris

I have no idea. However, there are some very smart and experienced folks on this forum who might be able to help.

 

[#lazy]

Mine has just started to make a rubbery rubbing noise when pedalling but stops when the motor is off however if you push the bike backwards on/off it will make the rubbery rubbing noise (RRN) !
Is this the start of a belt failure or could it just be crap in the motor ?

 

[Greg in Paris]

Hi, juste open the motor, the belt and the tensioner in good conditions. Remouve the pulley and suspect bearing with plastic cage. I don't have the tools and the press. N

 

[Bearing Man]

We can send you a pulley with new bearing fitted if that helps? Just contact me through Performance Line Bearings

 

[ruppia]

Hello guys.. today i was riding with two other guys.. all specy, two Gen2 and me with Gen3.

They told me that for one bike, they already change 3 motors, all in warranty. And the other guy already change one motor at 1800km.

I’m really scare about this problem, so i ask those guys if the new motor have something new instead of the old one. Something that could avoid totally the issue, as they assured for Gen3, with a new belt.
Apparently Specy change motors with a revised one or a new “old” generation.

But what it’s sound really strange that the motor that Specy mechanic change have the exact issue that the older one.

At very end, we are at 40 km from the beginning in a 15% slope, another motor failure for my friend… unbelivable, 5 motors in less than 18 months.

Why specy are not already solve the issue?
Why they are not change those faulty motors with the new one to avoid unhappy customer .
Why so many motors have this issue ?

 

[Bearing Man]

Hello guys.. today i was riding with two other guys.. all specy, two Gen2 and me with Gen3.

They told me that for one bike, they already change 3 motors, all in warranty. And the other guy already change one motor at 1800km.

I’m really scare about this problem, so i ask those guys if the new motor have something new instead of the old one. Something that could avoid totally the issue, as they assured for Gen3, with a new belt.
Apparently Specy change motors with a revised one or a new “old” generation.

But what it’s sound really strange that the motor that Specy mechanic change have the exact issue that the older one.

At very end, we are at 40 km from the beginning in a 15% slope, another motor failure for my friend… unbelivable, 5 motors in less than 18 months.

Why specy are not already solve the issue?
Why they are not change those faulty motors with the new one to avoid unhappy customer .
Why so many motors have this issue ?

Although not unusual to need one or two motors throughout the warranty period, 5 is a bit excessive! Are you guys doing something that could explain these failures?
Do you or the guys you were riding with, pressure wash your bikes after a ride?
Transport your bikes on the back of a vehicle in the wet?
Ford deep water?
Ride very rocky terrain and suffer repeated pedal strikes?

 

[ruppia]

Although not unusual to need one or two motors throughout the warranty period, 5 is a bit excessive! Are you guys doing something that could explain these failures?
Do you or the guys you were riding with, pressure wash your bikes after a ride?
Transport your bikes on the back of a vehicle in the wet?
Ford deep water?
Ride very rocky terrain and suffer repeated pedal strikes?

They are father and son. They always do regular maintenance and know how to wash the bike. No trasport at all. They get out from home and ride every time. And here terrain are rocky yes.

I'm worried !!

I'm planning to do the Via del Sale in Italy. If the engine breaks down in the middle of nowhere it would be a big problem.

 

[Bearing Man]

They are father and son. They always do regular maintenance and know how to wash the bike. No trasport at all. They get out from home and ride every time. And here terrain are rocky yes.

I'm worried !!

I'm planning to do the Via del Sale in Italy. If the engine breaks down in the middle of nowhere it would be a big problem.

I would like to ask some questions to see if the same thing fails each time or they have just been very unlucky, are you able to ask them some questions for me?

 

[ruppia]

I would like to ask some questions to see if the same thing fails each time or they have just been very unlucky, are you able to ask them some questions for me?

Yes, of course.

 

[Bearing Man]

Yes, of course.

Do they report popping or cracking noises prior to failure?
When the motor does fail, is the crank free to turn in both directions?
When the motor fails, is there any noise (whirring) coming from the motor?
Does walk assist still work?
Does failure happen following a pedal strike, accident, hard rocky pass or big air jumps?
Is there any crank slip or motor power delivery issues noted just before failure?
Any other info they can let me have would be helpful.

 

[ruppia]

Do they report popping or cracking noises prior to failure?
When the motor does fail, is the crank free to turn in both directions?
When the motor fails, is there any noise (whirring) coming from the motor?
Does walk assist still work?
Does failure happen following a pedal strike, accident, hard rocky pass or big air jumps?
Is there any crank slip or motor power delivery issues noted just before failure?
Any other info they can let me have would be helpful.

1) Do they report popping or cracking noises prior to failure?
NO

2) When the motor does fail, is the crank free to turn in both directions?
YES

3) When the motor fails, is there any noise (whirring) coming from the motor?
Noise like a chain crawling, almost like croaking, especially in the shorter gears

4) Does walk assist still work?
He have to try

5) Does failure happen following a pedal strike, accident, hard rocky pass or big air jumps?
Pedal strike NO, accident 100km before, hard pass: the climb was important, 70% of the time with the engine at its maximum thrust (turbo set at 100/100) and the remaining 30% in trail (set at 40/70), big air jump, not more than 15 cm without landing strike

6) Is there any crank slip or motor power delivery issues noted just before failure?
Cranck slip NO, in the moments immediately before the failure the croaking became more intense, so much so that I stopped to check the chain, when I restarted the engine gave way with immediate and sudden slippage of the crank, at no load. You could hear the part of the motor coaxial to the pedal pivot turning, but at no load.

7) Any other info they can let me have would be helpful.
I had noticed that when I stopped pedalling, there was a slight delay in stopping the power delivery, but we're talking hundredths of a second (not tenths, not thousandths, I'd say 30-40 hundredths of a second delay) and this happened in the last 1500km.
The engine, in its last 2000km of life has been used with very low assist, I would say 60% used in eco (15-20/35)

Luca

 

[Bearing Man]

1) Do they report popping or cracking noises prior to failure?
NO

2) When the motor does fail, is the crank free to turn in both directions?
YES

3) When the motor fails, is there any noise (whirring) coming from the motor?
Noise like a chain crawling, almost like croaking, especially in the shorter gears

4) Does walk assist still work?
He have to try

5) Does failure happen following a pedal strike, accident, hard rocky pass or big air jumps?
Pedal strike NO, accident 100km before, hard pass: the climb was important, 70% of the time with the engine at its maximum thrust (turbo set at 100/100) and the remaining 30% in trail (set at 40/70), big air jump, not more than 15 cm without landing strike

6) Is there any crank slip or motor power delivery issues noted just before failure?
Cranck slip NO, in the moments immediately before the failure the croaking became more intense, so much so that I stopped to check the chain, when I restarted the engine gave way with immediate and sudden slippage of the crank, at no load. You could hear the part of the motor coaxial to the pedal pivot turning, but at no load.

7) Any other info they can let me have would be helpful.
I had noticed that when I stopped pedalling, there was a slight delay in stopping the power delivery, but we're talking hundredths of a second (not tenths, not thousandths, I'd say 30-40 hundredths of a second delay) and this happened in the last 1500km.
The engine, in its last 2000km of life has been used with very low assist, I would say 60% used in eco (15-20/35)

Luca

Thank you for such a detailed answer. I just need to clarify something. In answer 2 you say YES and this would mean failure of the crankshaft sprag bearing, but in question 6, you say that he can hear "part of the motor coaxial to the pedal pivot turning" this would suggest the drive pulley sprag bearing or drive belt had failed. This also contradicts what I asked in question 3. My problem is to diagnose, is not easy with conflicting information.
The delay in stopping power delivery I believe is another downfall of this motor. Unlike some other motors there is no motor cutout when you shift gears. This puts a lot of extra strain and wear on the sprag bearings, chain and cassette. Or you have to stop pedaling wait, shift and start again! Not very practical.

If I had to guess, I think your friends are getting sprag bearing failure. However, I don't know why so many? This maybe to do with terrain or riding style but if he is getting 15000 to 2000km between each failure, that would be about right with what we see in the workshop for an off-road ridden bike. It would be interesting to up-grade one of your friends motors to see what happens then.

 

[sansoncristian]

Thank you for such a detailed answer. I just need to clarify something. In answer 2 you say YES and this would mean failure of the crankshaft sprag bearing, but in question 6, you say that he can hear "part of the motor coaxial to the pedal pivot turning" this would suggest the drive pulley sprag bearing or drive belt had failed. This also contradicts what I asked in question 3. My problem is to diagnose, is not easy with conflicting information.
The delay in stopping power delivery I believe is another downfall of this motor. Unlike some other motors there is no motor cutout when you shift gears. This puts a lot of extra strain and wear on the sprag bearings, chain and cassette. Or you have to stop pedaling wait, shift and start again! Not very practical.

If I had to guess, I think your friends are getting sprag bearing failure. However, I don't know why so many? This maybe to do with terrain or riding style but if he is getting 15000 to 2000km between each failure, that would be about right with what we see in the workshop for an off-road ridden bike. It would be interesting to up-grade one of your friends motors to see what happens then.

Hi Guys,
thanks for the focus you are having for my issue.
Well what happened It was really quick, I heard a small crocking, very very short crocking sound, so I was thinking there was something in the chain, so I stopped the bike. I've take a quick look on the chain but all was all right so I jumped on the bike and when I hit down the pedal, suddenly it fell down, completly in the void, It was like push in the pedal in the air, with exactly the sound I heard when I broke the first engine. It's a weird sound, not easy to describe, It's similar to a centrifuge of washing machine.
Another detail is that if you try to move backword the bike, you can clearly feel the rear wheel stucked. I didn't insist when I felt the wheel stucked like that.
About my driving style I can say that:
- First engine, 1800km, I was very enthusiastic of the ebike, and not so well trained, so I used a lot of time trial and turbo mode. I mean, 50% of the time in turbo or trial mode.
- Second engine, more or less 2000km: I usually take the bike for 40-50 km, using 90% of the time eco, sometimes I go out just for fun so I use more turbo and trail, but is rare.If I consider the whole distance of second motor I can say basically this engine it's been used 70% in ECO mode the rest could be trail or turbo. My engine set are: ECO 15-20/35(depend the friend wich I go out). TRAIL 40/70, TURBO 100/100.
During my use I never had a motor overheat, never.

My father's Bike (another turbo levo expert carbon 2019) suffers 3 motors change! He is 67, so probably his level of assistence is quite higher than mine, but not so much, probably the using chart for him could be: 40% eco 30% trail 30% turbo, he has ECO 25/40 and other parameters same to mine.

So as Specialized customer, we bought 3 brand new Specialized Turbo Levo (2 are 2019 and 1 2020), you have a great bike, very nice to use motor, but I'm really concerned about reliability, because we are use to organize our holidays bringing back the ebike, and you if happen you are in the middle of somewhere with all programmed for ebiking, and motor fail, it's not good. I mean, I really appreciated the attention of Specy to extend the warranty (4 years) but in the same time, I would like to be more comfortable knowing althought the motor is the old one, Browse and Specy modified it and solved the problem. This is a thing I really expecting from a brand as Specy, also because one of the reason why I choosed this brand it was properly the extreme attention the firm have toward the customers.
So if you have some upgrade to mount on my motor, I'm totally agree to test all upgrades you would to fit on my motor looking toward for the problems solutions. I would like to hold Specy bikes, and buy more in the future but I need to see this problem solved definately, to keep my trust in this great bike firm.
Thanks for your attention guys, have a great ride wherever you are!
Cristian

 

[Zimmerframe]

Hi Guys,
thanks for the focus you are having for my issue.
Well what happened It was really quick, I heard a small crocking, very very short crocking sound, so I was thinking there was something in the chain, so I stopped the bike. I've take a quick look on the chain but all was all right so I jumped on the bike and when I hit down the pedal, suddenly it fell down, completly in the void, It was like push in the pedal in the air, with exactly the sound I heard when I broke the first engine. It's a weird sound, not easy to describe, It's similar to a centrifuge of washing machine.
Another detail is that if you try to move backword the bike, you can clearly feel the rear wheel stucked. I didn't insist when I felt the wheel stucked like that.
About my driving style I can say that:
- First engine, 1800km, I was very enthusiastic of the ebike, and not so well trained, so I used a lot of time trial and turbo mode. I mean, 50% of the time in turbo or trial mode.
- Second engine, more or less 2000km: I usually take the bike for 40-50 km, using 90% of the time eco, sometimes I go out just for fun so I use more turbo and trail, but is rare.If I consider the whole distance of second motor I can say basically this engine it's been used 70% in ECO mode the rest could be trail or turbo. My engine set are: ECO 15-20/35(depend the friend wich I go out). TRAIL 40/70, TURBO 100/100.
During my use I never had a motor overheat, never.

My father's Bike (another turbo levo expert carbon 2019) suffers 3 motors change! He is 67, so probably his level of assistence is quite higher than mine, but not so much, probably the using chart for him could be: 40% eco 30% trail 30% turbo, he has ECO 25/40 and other parameters same to mine.

So as Specialized customer, we bought 3 brand new Specialized Turbo Levo (2 are 2019 and 1 2020), you have a great bike, very nice to use motor, but I'm really concerned about reliability, because we are use to organize our holidays bringing back the ebike, and you if happen you are in the middle of somewhere with all programmed for ebiking, and motor fail, it's not good. I mean, I really appreciated the attention of Specy to extend the warranty (4 years) but in the same time, I would like to be more comfortable knowing althought the motor is the old one, Browse and Specy modified it and solved the problem. This is a thing I really expecting from a brand as Specy, also because one of the reason why I choosed this brand it was properly the extreme attention the firm have toward the customers.
So if you have some upgrade to mount on my motor, I'm totally agree to test all upgrades you would to fit on my motor looking toward for the problems solutions. I would like to hold Specy bikes, and buy more in the future but I need to see this problem solved definately, to keep my trust in this great bike firm.
Thanks for your attention guys, have a great ride wherever you are!
Cristian

Welcome to the forum. Thanks for the detailed information.

Do you know what cadence you and your father use ? Blevo will give you average, minimum and maximum if you use that to record. Low cadence in Turbo/Trail seems to destroy them due to heat build up ..

 

[sansoncristian]

Welcome to the forum. Thanks for the detailed information.

Do you know what cadence you and your father use ? Blevo will give you average, minimum and maximum if you use that to record. Low cadence in Turbo/Trail seems to destroy them due to heat build up ..

Hi,
Thanks for your answer mate.
I never used BLEVO, surely when I'm hiking upper a slope 15% with eco, my cadence is not so high, usually I use the last gear or the one before with ECO, around 8-10 kmh,but I really don't know the precise parameter of my average cadence.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Hi,
Thanks for your answer mate.
I never used BLEVO, surely when I'm hiking upper a slope 15% with eco, my cadence is not so high, usually I use the last gear or the one before with ECO, around 8-10 kmh,but I really don't know the precise parameter of my average cadence.

I think if you're heading up a semi-reasonable slope, you're not going to be dawdling at 40rpm So low cadence isn't the problem in your case.

I did have a big list of questions in my head for the "Superhero" group .. Should have written them down !

 

[sansoncristian]

I think if you're heading up a semi-reasonable slope, you're not going to be dawdling at 40rpm So low cadence isn't the problem in your case.

I did have a big list of questions in my head for the "Superhero" group .. Should have written them down !

Yesterday, when I broken the motor, It was the second exit after 1 month of injury recovery, so I was going up with my friend and father using turbo during engine failure.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Yesterday, when I broken the motor, It was the second exit after 1 month of injury recovery, so I was going up with my friend and father using turbo during engine failure.

I had some power issues and traced them to low cadence following injury and low cadence to compensate. So whilst it doesn't excuse it, if your motor was already suffering from "Super hero" group (some other as yet unidentified riding attribute) it might have been just enough to cook it and cause a fail.

Have you built a test/torture rig yet @Bearing Man ??

 

[Bearing Man]

Hi Guys,
thanks for the focus you are having for my issue.
Well what happened It was really quick, I heard a small crocking, very very short crocking sound, so I was thinking there was something in the chain, so I stopped the bike. I've take a quick look on the chain but all was all right so I jumped on the bike and when I hit down the pedal, suddenly it fell down, completly in the void, It was like push in the pedal in the air, with exactly the sound I heard when I broke the first engine. It's a weird sound, not easy to describe, It's similar to a centrifuge of washing machine.
Another detail is that if you try to move backword the bike, you can clearly feel the rear wheel stucked. I didn't insist when I felt the wheel stucked like that.
About my driving style I can say that:
- First engine, 1800km, I was very enthusiastic of the ebike, and not so well trained, so I used a lot of time trial and turbo mode. I mean, 50% of the time in turbo or trial mode.
- Second engine, more or less 2000km: I usually take the bike for 40-50 km, using 90% of the time eco, sometimes I go out just for fun so I use more turbo and trail, but is rare.If I consider the whole distance of second motor I can say basically this engine it's been used 70% in ECO mode the rest could be trail or turbo. My engine set are: ECO 15-20/35(depend the friend wich I go out). TRAIL 40/70, TURBO 100/100.
During my use I never had a motor overheat, never.

My father's Bike (another turbo levo expert carbon 2019) suffers 3 motors change! He is 67, so probably his level of assistence is quite higher than mine, but not so much, probably the using chart for him could be: 40% eco 30% trail 30% turbo, he has ECO 25/40 and other parameters same to mine.

From your description, this is almost definitely sprag bearing failure. The pedal dropping says that this is the crankshaft sprag bearing that has failed (does the walk assistance still work?). Riding in eco or turbo will not affect this bearing. Drop me an Email me through www.performancelinebearings.com we will see if we can help.

 

[Bearing Man]

Have you built a test/torture rig yet @Bearing Man ??

No, but building a pretty good picture of what causes issues and why.

 

[ruppia]

Hi guys, today i decided to make a small mod to prevent moisture and dirt coming on the drive side of Brose.

Manutenzione Brose pedivelle dure a girare indietro/VIDEO COMPLETO - YouTube

In Specy My22, there is an o-ring on that side, i use a plastic cover as you can see in the photo (thanks andreoli_fabio <[email protected]>)

On the opposite side i put an o-ring 30x25x2.5.

Cranks turn backwards with difficulty because the crank and the plastic element friction, but I think this is not a problem

 

[Bearing Man]

We often see motors where people have fitted O-rings to stop water ingress. An O-ring is designed to be a static seal, once you add a little dirt and grit to an O-ring, it becomes a remarkably efficient cutting tool. We have seen them cut through the motor covers on the Bosch motors and into the crankarm and through the bearing seal on the Brose.

 

[ruppia]

We often see motors where people have fitted O-rings to stop water ingress. An O-ring is designed to be a static seal, once you add a little dirt and grit to an O-ring, it becomes a remarkably efficient cutting tool. We have seen them cut through the motor covers on the Bosch motors and into the crankarm and through the bearing seal on the Brose.

But Specy are mounting it on new bike !?!?!
I trust you and i will remove the green one on NDS side. DS have the cover, do you think its good have it or better dismount also on that side ?

Luca

 

[Bearing Man]

I have heard about this O-ring fix by Brose. This is like the felt ring fix by Bosch. These ideas work great in test labs and on road bikes, but put it in an off road bike and suddenly it's a really bad idea! Leave yours on and run it through a winter season and keep an eye on it, I am sure you will want to remove it before long. Also bear in mind that the O-ring will wear quite quickly. As soon as there is any play at all replace it or water will sit behind it.

 

[sansoncristian]

From your description, this is almost definitely sprag bearing failure. The pedal dropping says that this is the crankshaft sprag bearing that has failed (does the walk assistance still work?). Riding in eco or turbo will not affect this bearing. Drop me an Email me through www.performancelinebearings.com we will see if we can help.

Hi, I forgot to test if the walk mode still doing his job. Now the bike is in the store for the assistance.
I will write you by email
Thanks for your attention
Cristian