This goes along way to explaining why we are stuck with 250W and 15.5MPH!!!

[Wiltshire Warrior]

Electric bikes: licensing, tax and insurance

 

[MattyB]

Sorry, I don't understand your point. Your link sets out what the UK law is now (as I suspect all regular UK posters on this forum are aware), but not why the 250W constant/25kph limit was chosen as the demark between a bicycle and a moped. I've heard a few theories about that (ranging from it was a completely arbitrary choice by a nameless civil servant somewhere through to simple alignment with existing EU law), but that doc does not help to explain how we got to the current regulations.

 

[Wiltshire Warrior]

Sorry, I don't understand your point. Your link sets out what the UK law is now (as I suspect all regular UK posters on this forum are aware), but not why the 250W constant/25kph limit was chosen as the demark between a bicycle and a moped. I've heard a few theories about that (ranging from it was a completely arbitrary choice by a nameless civil servant somewhere through to simple alignment with existing EU law), but that doc does not help to explain how we got to the current regulations.

Sweeeet!!! - this legislatuion comes from EU law - so after Brexit we can lobby our parliament for 350W and 30MPH

 

[highpeakrider]

Why would we lobby for 350w and 30MPH?

I want my ebike to replicate the experience of a normal mtb with a level of assistance.

If we go to that level you may as well buy an electric off-road bike and be done with it, if we all run out of battery now those things would last an hour.

This seems a sure fire way of getting restricted riding in place , insurance etc and a grater focus on ebike usage.

Seems a real bad idea to me, I want to ride my bike in the wilds of the Peak District not travel to a defined bike park.

 

[estoril]

Don't hold your breath, and is it really necessary anyway?

 

[Wiltshire Warrior]

Don't hold your breath, and is it really necessary anyway?

Is it necessary? Well we could say that about e bikes in general, more power and more speed = more fun - thats what its all about for me.

 

[Gary]

 

[MattyB]

Hehehe - right underneath Gary’s post, check out the ad I was just shown...

 

[njn]

How does the haibike flyon with 120nm of output stay within the 250w limit?

 

[Gary]

 

[Wiltshire Warrior]

Hehehe - right underneath Gary’s post, check out the ad I was just shown...

View attachment 6126

Thats just nasty

 

[R120]

Ashamed to admit that could be my doppelgänger

 

[Gary]

Don't be ashamed. Especially if you own the same unicorn T-Shirt

 

[R120]

I have the magic fingers too

 

[Gary]

Forum needs an *AWESOME* reaction

 

[skyfree]

I live in California so aren't familiar with the situation there, but in my opinion a 15.5mph limit is way too slow and in fact dangerous if you are going to be using your bike on public roads. Here it's 20, but the power tapers off at about 18.5 so it's really more like 19. I use my Haibike for every form of bike riding from technical single track to road. The Bosch CX motor really doesn't allow exceeding the limit by much as most of you probably know, because there is added resistance from the reduction gear.

There are two situations I was getting into regularly on my 14-mile commute: #1 was when traffic is backed up and I need to get into the turn lane across 2 lanes of traffic going straight. I need to match up to 25 mph or I'm risking my life. #2 is getting across a highway entrance ramp where there is a constant stream of traffic. After just about getting killed a couple of times, I looked into an aftermarket "accessory" that solves that problem and that has made things so much more safe.

I know that's a very controversial subject, but this is a perfect example of the consequences of laws that don't consider the real world conditions that cyclists encounter.

 

[Lee Dove]

Why would we lobby for 350w and 30MPH?

I want my ebike to replicate the experience of a normal mtb with a level of assistance.

If we go to that level you may as well buy an electric off-road bike and be done with it, if we all run out of battery now those things would last an hour.

This seems a sure fire way of getting restricted riding in place , insurance etc and a grater focus on ebike usage.

Seems a real bad idea to me, I want to ride my bike in the wilds of the Peak District not travel to a defined bike park.

Hi,

25 - 45 kph is the speed range that defines a Moped suitable for 16 year olds to ride in the UK. I think it's very unlikely that the UK will change Ebikes to cross into this speed range. You need a licence now to ride anything powered faster than 25kph.

 

[Gary]

in my opinion a 15.5mph limit is way too slow and in fact dangerous if you are going to be using your bike on public roads

Dangerous?

The motors limit doesn't stop you pedalling to higher speeds simply stops assisting you. it's the stupidly heavy bicycle and the stupidly slow rolling resistance of big fat soft super sticky tyres most Emtbers feel when they break the 15mph barrier and the assistance cuts out. The effect is far less so on a lighter road going Ebike withroad tyres for road use.

A fit cyclist on a regular road bike can average 17-23mph easily on the flat but the same cyclist will struggle to hold 15mph on any significantly long ascents.

There are two situations I was getting into regularly on my 14-mile commute: #1 was when traffic is backed up and I need to get into the turn lane across 2 lanes of traffic going straight. I need to match up to 25 mph or I'm risking my life. #2 is getting across a highway entrance ramp where there is a constant stream of traffic. After just about getting killed a couple of times, I looked into an aftermarket "accessory" that solves that problem and that has made things so much more safe.

You're clearly a very inexperienced cyclist. and a danger to yourself and other road users.
Do yourself a favour. Stay off the highway. it's a bicycle. not a motor vehicle. and should be ridden accordingly

this is a perfect example of the consequences of laws that don't consider the real world conditions that cyclists encounter.

No it really isn't. real world cyclists don't survive very long if they try to ride and change lane across 2 lane highways in the way motor vehicles can.

 

[Gary]

You need a licence now to ride anything powered faster than 25kph.

No.

You need a license to ride anything powered over 25kph. Massive difference.

 

[Lee Dove]

No.

You need a license to ride anything powered over 25kph. Massive difference.

Don't understand the NO so I will be a bit clearer.

You need a licence (insurance and mot) in the UK to ride any bicycle on the road that has power assist above 25kph.

 

[skyfree]

Dangerous?

The motors limit doesn't stop you pedalling to higher speeds simply stops assisting you. it's the stupidly heavy bicycle and the stupidly slow rolling resistance of big fat soft super sticky tyres most Emtbers feel when they break the 15mph barrier and the assistance cuts out. The effect is far less so on a lighter road going Ebike withroad tyres for road use.

A fit cyclist on a regular road bike can average 17-23mph easily on the flat but the same cyclist will struggle to hold 15mph on any significantly long ascents.

Hi Gary -- I'm running Schwalbe super moto-x tires so not really much of a penalty. Have you ridden a Bosch CX? There is a lot of resistance past the cutoff. Yes, it's POSSIBLE to pedal at 20 mph, but not for long. The roadies can beat me downwind easily. Are you saying I should get a road bike? Not sure what your point is...

You're clearly a very inexperienced cyclist. and a danger to yourself and other road users.
Do yourself a favour. Stay off the highway. it's a bicycle. not a motor vehicle. and should be ridden accordingly

No it really isn't. real world cyclists don't survive very long if they try to ride and change lane across 2 lane highways in the way motor vehicles can.

You're clearly a very inexperienced reader. Never said I was riding on the highway. That is illegal and stupid. I'm riding on surface streets with bike lanes on the right. Where it crosses the highway onramp you need to cross OVER the lane at some point to get to the continuation of the bike lane. Do I need to draw you a picture?

At 2 other points I am riding on a 4-lane surface street with a 40 mph speed limit. The bike lane is on the right, 2 turn lanes on the left. I have to cross over the 2 lanes of traffic that is moving at about 30. I can do it at 25 safely, but not at 15.

My point is that there are laws, and there is common sense. Sometimes the 2 don't work together very well.

 

[Gary]

Sorry dude. ignore me. We're saying the same thing

Gary did

 

[Gary]

#2 is getting across a highway entrance ramp where there is a constant stream of traffic.

sorry. Not having highways in the UK I don't actually know what this is... but...

After just about getting killed a couple of times

Tells me you should stay away from them.

Top condition Cat1 competitive road cyclists average what? 20-23mph riding alone on the flat
average club road cyclists 17-20mph
mountainbikes/commuters 12-15mph
a rough guide but hopefully you get where I'm coming from here

You seriously do not need your bike assisted to 25mph for safety riding in the same situation as un assisted bicycles. you need to ride more safely in the first place.

ie planning ahead and possibly even getting off and walking across lanes at a crossing if needs be. ie. ..

After just about getting killed a couple of times

 

[Gofurtherfaster]

Its far safer riding with a unrestricted ebike, most traffic in my city travels around 20-25 mph and I keep up with them easily, when I rode restricted and on a normal bike, I would get overtaken all the time and it was far more dangerous, now I hold the centre of the lane like a car.

 

[skyfree]

sorry. Not having highways in the UK I don't actually know what this is... but...

Tells me you should stay away from them.

I'd love to. Not possible to avoid crossing highway onramps if I want to bike to work. "Almost killed" is poetic license.

Top condition Cat1 competitive road cyclists average what? 20-23mph riding alone on the flat
average club road cyclists 17-20mph
mountainbikes/commuters 12-15mph
a rough guide but hopefully you get where I'm coming from here

The average speed (Strava) of my commute went from 14.8 (restricted) to 17.9 (unrestricted) which puts me solidly in your speed ranges above. That 14.8 was when it was restricted to 20. At 15.5 it would have been more like 12. The road cyclist at 17-20 is going to have a much easier time of it as you can imagine. I have one bike that has to do everything. It's safer now.

Note that we have class 3 eBikes here which assist up to 28mph and you don't need a license for those either, so nobody gives my bike a second glance.

You seriously do not need your bike assisted to 25mph for safety riding in the same situation as un assisted bicycles. you need to ride more safely in the first place.

ie planning ahead and possibly even getting off and walking across lanes at a crossing if needs be. ie. ..

I don't mean to pick a fight but I'm describing a situation where slow speeds are more dangerous due to mismatch with traffic. Those situations exist and cannot always be avoided. You cannot pedal an eBike with the power off as fast as you can an unassisted bike. I think most people who bike commute on them will understand that. There are NO crosswalks at many of the problem areas I'm describing since there are no accommodations for pedestrians even though there are bike lanes. That might be hard for you to imagine but that's how it is here. Seeing a crosswalk on a highway onramp is very rare. Everyone drives and bikes are just annoyances to them.

 

[knut7]

It sounds like you're using the wrong tool for the job. Pedelec/class1 is a mild ebike that can access infrastructure for bikes or even pedestrians. And trails. There are lots of other options that better for riding at higher speeds in traffic. For obvious reason we don't want those, nor a tuned class1/pedelec on non motorized infrastructure.

 

[skyfree]

It sounds like you're using the wrong tool for the job. Pedelec/class1 is a mild ebike that can access infrastructure for bikes or even pedestrians. And trails. There are lots of other options that better for riding at higher speeds in traffic. For obvious reason we don't want those, nor a tuned class1/pedelec on non motorized infrastructure.

Yes, very true and I completely agree. I wish I had storage space for another bike but it would have to sit outside in the rain.

 

[Marke]

How does the haibike flyon with 120nm of output stay within the 250w limit?

Its marketing BS. More torque = slower output shaft. If they wanted to quote 240nm they could just reduce the motor output shaft speed by half. The important number is 250w which is set by law.

 

[MattyB]

Its marketing BS. More torque = slower output shaft. If they wanted to quote 240nm they could just reduce the motor output shaft speed by half. The important number is 250w which is set by law.

True, but that doesn’t necessarily mean the TQ motor isn’t putting out a higher peak power. Remember the 250W is a max continuous rating, not the peak - all the current power systems are capable of outputting much more than this for short periods, but the software on board ensures that they will not exceed the 250W continuous unless derestricted.

 

[Marke]

True, but that doesn’t necessarily mean the TQ motor isn’t putting out a higher peak power. Remember the 250W is a max continuous rating, not the peak - all the current power systems are capable of outputting much more than this for short periods, but the software on board ensures that they will not exceed the 250W continuous unless derestricted.

True, but it is in the interests of every manufacturer to maximise peak output within the law. IHMO haibike are trying to mislead by quoting a torque number which can be manupulated easily- bless their cotton socks.